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Re: Nerlens Noel
Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:31 pm
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
Phenom's_Revenge wrote:Here is a stat to chew on
"There are exactly six players in NBA history who've put up the steal and block rates that Noel has in each of his two NBA seasons (min. 1,000 min): Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Andrei Kirilenko, Ben Wallace, Gerald Wallace, Nerlens Noel. That's incredibly impressive company, even without keeping in mind that Noel just turned 22 this month."
http://www.todaysfastbreak.com/nba-east/philadelphia-76ers/column-noel-teague-rumor-scary-76ers/
Yeah, that's pretty scary. Three of those guys are Hall of Famers (Olajuwon, Robinson, Wallace) and the others (Kirilenko, Wallace) were All-Stars and All-Defense selections. That's nothing to scoff at. Noel will likely have his own accolades to show for the impact he has on the game.
This article does a really good job of discussing Noel's defensive prowess. I advise those both for and against the trade to check it out.
http://bballbreakdown.com/2016/06/04/sixers-trade-nerlens-noel-jahlil-okafor/
Re: Nerlens Noel
Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:34 pm
by Phenom
lipoli390 wrote:I have no interest in Okafor. I like Noel and I acknowledge that there is merit to the argument for trading our 5th pick to get him. But wouldn't do the deal for a couple reasons. First, he'd be expensive to keep with his contract set to expire soon and I'm looking ahead to the max contracts we'll eventually have to give both KAT and Wiggins along with a near max deal perhaps for LaVine. Second, Noel is strictly a one-way player and I don't like the idea of giving up a 5th pick and then having to pay a lot to retain that sort of player.
I think the talk about acquiring Noel reflects at least partially the "grass is greener" syndrome. It seems that Gorgui's abilities are too easily overlooked or marginalized by some Wolves fans. The stats provided by TeamRicky are instructive. Noel is a terrific defender, but a pretty poor offensive player and bad free-throw shooter. Gorgui is solid on both ends. He has a nice shot and hits from the free throw line. He's a solid rebounder and good shot-blocker. He's a fierce competitor as well. And he's developed really good chemistry with his teammates, especially KAT. I'd rather have Gorgui plus one of the guys we're likely to get at #5 than just Noel.
From my end it is not a grass is greener dilemma. I would like it if the Wolves could have both but the reality is though that if Noel came on board it will likely mean the end of Gorgui in the next couple of years, after an extension for him but before extensions for others. At that time Gorgui should still be extremely tradeable, so that is a consideration. If Thibs and Layden decided to make this trade it should signal that they would be choosing Noel over Gorgui long term but I doubt that it will be the case. I think Thibs will want to keep Gorgui in the core meaning there will not be a match to trade in the end and they will decide to bolster the back court, which may be for the best anyway. Then the roster will get pieced in with older bigs ready to compete and younger guys on cheap deals with some potential.
Re: Nerlens Noel
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:07 am
by Lipoli390
longstrangetrip wrote:I didn't vote because my option wasn't on the board...my preference is still to trade #5 for two later first round pick in this relatively flat but deep draft.
If the choice were just the ones in the poll though, I think I would keep the 5th pick.
Obviously, it would depend on which picks. But generally I'm with you on the 1 for 2 deal you're suggesting. I really like the value you get on the rookie scale under the new salary cap. I we could land two picks that get us Sabonis and Valentine, I'd do the deal.
Re: Nerlens Noel
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:53 am
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
lipoli390 wrote:longstrangetrip wrote:I didn't vote because my option wasn't on the board...my preference is still to trade #5 for two later first round pick in this relatively flat but deep draft.
If the choice were just the ones in the poll though, I think I would keep the 5th pick.
Obviously, it would depend on which picks. But generally I'm with you on the 1 for 2 deal you're suggesting. I really like the value you get on the rookie scale under the new salary cap. I we could land two picks that get us Sabonis and Valentine, I'd do the deal.
Yes, it would certainly depend on who we pick later in the first, but you have named exactly the two guys I would want. And even though our board's love affair with Sabonis makes us think he's a lottery pick, he's still only slotted at 17 on DraftExpress...in fact both Sabonis and Valentine would be available (according to that same mock) if we were to trade our 5th for either Boston's or Denver's later picks.
I think adding those two draft picks and one mid-range salary free agent would be an ideal off-season for the Wolves. Rookies don't generally contribute much right away, but Sabonis and Valentine, while having perhaps lower ceilings, appear to be more NBA-ready than many of the one-and-dones in the draft. One could argue that drafting this pair doesn't make us any more athletic, but I think we have sufficient athleticism already on our team, and adding two savvy college players like these two would really round out our roster.
Re: Nerlens Noel
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:21 am
by Monster
Noel turned 22 a few weeks ago and just finished his 2nd NBA season. Are we being too quick to say he can't become reasonably competent as an offensive player beyond his high rate of finishing around the rim? What about his passing is it decent or maybe above average?
Re: Nerlens Noel
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:54 am
by bleedspeed
lipoli390 wrote: If we could land two picks that get us Sabonis and Valentine, I'd do the deal.
I am with you. I think both would be great additions to this team and I think Sabonis still has a lot of upside and Valentine will be a good SF that shoots, passes, and rebounds well.
Re: Nerlens Noel
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:30 am
by MikeAz [enjin:6636981]
lipoli390 wrote:I'd rather have Gorgui plus one of the guys we're likely to get at #5 than just Noel.
You seemed to have rephrased the question. You'd actually have Gorgui and Noel. The poll doesn't mention trading Gorgui. Noel provides the defense Thibs loves. Gorgui provides depth at the PF and C spots. Seems like a sold front court.
Re: Nerlens Noel
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:38 am
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
I don't want to speak for Lip, Mike, but I think he's looking ahead one year to when we have to pay Wig and Zach...as well as Noel. It's almost impossible to make the math work without letting Gorgui, Belly and Bazz go. Yes, we'd have a great big man rotation for one year, but I don't see how we could keep G in 2017-8.
Re: Nerlens Noel
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:49 am
by TheFuture
I'm late to the party here, but I'd strongly consider Okafor and pass on Noel. Noel does npt carry value of a top 10 pick. He's a complete liability on offense, he cannot play PF, he doesn't rebound that well, and he's entering the last year of his contract when the cap is going to boom. I'm not a huge fan of Okafor, but him and KAT would be a complete nightmare for opposing teams. They'd compliment each other very well. Dieng would also compliment Okafor.
Re: Nerlens Noel
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:51 am
by TheFuture
Camden0916 wrote:Question: How good would Gorgui Dieng look playing on that Philly roster? Might we understand the difference in point guard play too? I'd think that Ricky Rubio is quite the step up from Ish Smith, T.J. McConnell, Tony Wroten, and whoever else the Sixers brought in through that revolving door. How good does Dieng look offensively playing with Jahlil Okafor, Robert Covington, Nik Stauskas, and other questionable NBA talents instead of Karl-Anthony Towns, Andrew Wiggins, Zach LaVine, Shabazz Muhammad, etc.? I think situation matters, especially in this case.
I've already illustrated in the past that Noel is in fact better better than Dieng defensively, both by the numbers and the eye test. Do we think Noel couldn't play the same role offensively that DeAndre Jordan and Tyson Chandler play/played? Screen setter, roll to the hoop. Defenses have to honor that. Finish the opportunities created for him at the rim, attack the offensive glass, and make plays in transition. Noel's capable of excelling in that role as long as there are potent scorers around him. Minnesota looks to have that.
Also, I firmly believe that organizations can't be afraid to pay for talent. If -- when -- Noel comes in and performs well enough to where he commands a healthy contract, then pay him. His production defensively alone is going to get him paid well. To me, that's not a bad thing. Can always move pieces around in the future if need be.
Have you actually watched Noel play much? The guy has hands of stone. He's not adept at catching lobs and does not have good touch around the basket. Its also why his rebounding numbers suffer.