Minnesota Sports Forum

We have a lot of great debates on this Board. And most of the things we debate are largely matters of opinion with reasonable opposing positions. But some things aren't debatable - where a truth has been clearly established. One example is Ricky's poor shooting. I'm a big Ricky fan and have consistently argued that he's still a very good PG in spite of his terrible shooting - pointing to his rebounding, assist and steal stats as well as his statistically positive impact on the team. I've also indicated my view that his shooting could potentially improve to the point where it becomes decent. But the fact is he's a terrible shooting.

Wiggins has great talent and the potential to be a perennial all-star caliber player. But there is no doubt his intensity and effort ebb and flow far too much. And it's not just what those of us who watch almost every game have observed - often seeing him fail to get back defensively or go after loose balls or rebounds. It was the main rap on him in scouting reports coming out of college. Milt Newton mentioned it last summer in a radio interview, describing as an example a practice last season where Flip got on Wiggins for a lack of effort in practice. Milt talked about this trait as a problem for Wiggins. This lack of consistent effort/intensity and his poor ball-handling are obvious well-established flaws in Wiggins as a player. They are two thing he'll have to improve if he's going to be the all-star caliber player he has the potential to be.

lipoli390 wrote:We have a lot of great debates on this Board. And most of the things we debate are largely matters of opinion with reasonable opposing positions. But some things aren't debatable - where a truth has been clearly established. One example is Ricky's poor shooting. I'm a big Ricky fan and have consistently argued that he's still a very good PG in spite of his terrible shooting - pointing to his rebounding, assist and steal stats as well as his statistically positive impact on the team. I've also indicated my view that his shooting could potentially improve to the point where it becomes decent. But the fact is he's a terrible shooting.

Wiggins has great talent and the potential to be a perennial all-star caliber player. But there is no doubt his intensity and effort ebb and flow far too much. And it's not just what those of us who watch almost every game have observed - often seeing him fail to get back defensively or go after loose balls or rebounds. It was the main rap on him in scouting reports coming out of college. Milt Newton mentioned it last summer in a radio interview, describing as an example a practice last season where Flip got on Wiggins for a lack of effort in practice. Milt talked about this trait as a problem for Wiggins. This lack of consistent effort/intensity and his poor ball-handling are obvious well-established flaws in Wiggins as a player. They are two thing he'll have to improve if he's going to be the all-star caliber player he has the potential to be.

2 points, thanks your post.

1. Engagement in the game and effort arent synonymous in my opinion. I think that were there a system that everyone was sure exactly what they were supposed to do, this wouldnt even be a conversation. I don't think Wiggins checks out due to a lack of effort, and I think very few (especially here) are qualified to make that call.

2. Lapses in play are common amongst young players. Again, "effort" is a character issue more to me and not engaging in the play can be more greatly affected by coaching. I don't believe Wiggins doesn't try hard enough, I do believe he has lapses where he's not engaged in the game. I attribute this more to simply not having clearly defined responsibilities established by a system. This is why his one on one d looks great and his team d is suspect.


My main idea here is quite simple. Wiggins more frequently gets called out on character than other players on the team his age ( I know he was a number 1 pick). Even though he often has showed the most character of our players for many games this year, carrying us to wins. I like many here want to see more consistency. I just thinks that will come with age and knowledge, rather than more effort, which I don't see as the problem.

I equate Wiggins consistency with my effort to drop a bunch of pounds. Starting today, I will a concerted effort to drop weight. Maybe it will help Wiggins...

Here's my problem with those questioning Wiggins "motor". How are you measuring that? Who's leading the team in "motor" this year? I'm not aware of any such stats - so I'm assuming it's just subjective/opinion. I see some people linking effort to lack of rebounding. But Wiggins rebounds better than Klay Thompson...does Thompson have a bad "motor" too? Furthermore, why would rebounds be a better metric than say drawing fouls? It seems like guys who draw a lot of fouls are guys who "take it to the rim". Guys who "take it to the rim" are often referred to as "being aggressive" which is the opposite of what some are painting Wiggins. Wiggins is top 10 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts. And Top 15 in points scored. Can you reach those numbers being passive?

People used to laud Corey Brewer for his "motor". They loved what they perceived to be all out effort - all the time. Yet other people might watch Brewer and see a guy who plays completely out of control. Wiggins is a gifted athlete that makes things look easy. I personally don't have a problem with his effort. I think it's just a very subjective thing. Wiggins is already an elite scorer at age 20. I'd like to believe he can improve on rebounding/defense with more experience. But, even if he doesn't - he's probably going to be a borderline All-Star just based on his scoring ability alone (similar to Klay Thompson).

Carlos Danger wrote:Here's my problem with those questioning Wiggins "motor". How are you measuring that? Who's leading the team in "motor" this year? I'm not aware of any such stats - so I'm assuming it's just subjective/opinion. I see some people linking effort to lack of rebounding. But Wiggins rebounds better than Klay Thompson...does Thompson have a bad "motor" too? Furthermore, why would rebounds be a better metric than say drawing fouls? It seems like guys who draw a lot of fouls are guys who "take it to the rim". Guys who "take it to the rim" are often referred to as "being aggressive" which is the opposite of what some are painting Wiggins. Wiggins is top 10 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts. And Top 15 in points scored. Can you reach those numbers being passive?

People used to laud Corey Brewer for his "motor". They loved what they perceived to be all out effort - all the time. Yet other people might watch Brewer and see a guy who plays completely out of control. Wiggins is a gifted athlete that makes things look easy. I personally don't have a problem with his effort. I think it's just a very subjective thing. Wiggins is already an elite scorer at age 20. I'd like to believe he can improve on rebounding/defense with more experience. But, even if he doesn't - he's probably going to be a borderline All-Star just based on his scoring ability alone (similar to Klay Thompson).

Good points here and sort of lines up with what Britt said about how he sees Wiggins as a guy who is reserved and selective in his play. I am not worried too much at this point and won't worry too much until I see him falter in big moments. I have a feeling that he will bring it when the lights are brightest.

We have gone round and round about Wiggins but if you aren't a little concerned about his doing other stuff other than scoring...come on be realistic. Having said that the last 3 or so games Wiggins has been really locked in and I think ultimately he will be fine but he has to at least get more 50/50 balls and sprint down the court 3x a game more on average. There is a measurable metric for ya. :)

I'll say this about Tyus I have been defending him but he has been struggling more than just that 3 point shot the last couple of games. That may be partly why Sam gave Zach a shot at playing Pg plus maybe Sam thought it may give Zach a different way to get going. It didn't work but Zach will come out of it I am not really worried he has faced a couple good defensive teams that have made life tough for him. I may sound like Sam here but it may be good for him to keep him working hard even though I don't think he is just gonna be lazy thinking he has it all figured out.

Belly with another good game. It's fun when he can come in and play his game he is a such a multidimensional player.

Greg Smith when he sets screens is gonna basically escort you tongue basket. Guys should have just flat out attacked when he was screening their guy because there was now way they were getting back into the play. Maybe KG has been working with him on the nuance of making those little motions that aren't called but he was clearing the way big time.

Overall it was a worthwhile game to watch even though Utah pulled away for an easy win. It would be nice to pick up a Trevor Booker type for the bench.

monsterpile wrote:.

Belly with another good game. It's fun when he can come in and play his game he is a such a multidimensional player.

Greg Smith when he sets screens is gonna basically escort you tongue basket. Guys should have just flat out attacked when he was screening their guy because there was now way they were getting back into the play. Maybe KG has been working with him on the nuance of making those little motions that aren't called but he was clearing the way big time.

.

Both good signs. Screening was my only skill on the court. (must illegal)

Carlos Danger wrote:Here's my problem with those questioning Wiggins "motor". How are you measuring that? Who's leading the team in "motor" this year? I'm not aware of any such stats - so I'm assuming it's just subjective/opinion. I see some people linking effort to lack of rebounding. But Wiggins rebounds better than Klay Thompson...does Thompson have a bad "motor" too? Furthermore, why would rebounds be a better metric than say drawing fouls? It seems like guys who draw a lot of fouls are guys who "take it to the rim". Guys who "take it to the rim" are often referred to as "being aggressive" which is the opposite of what some are painting Wiggins. Wiggins is top 10 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts. And Top 15 in points scored. Can you reach those numbers being passive?

People used to laud Corey Brewer for his "motor". They loved what they perceived to be all out effort - all the time. Yet other people might watch Brewer and see a guy who plays completely out of control. Wiggins is a gifted athlete that makes things look easy. I personally don't have a problem with his effort. I think it's just a very subjective thing. Wiggins is already an elite scorer at age 20. I'd like to believe he can improve on rebounding/defense with more experience. But, even if he doesn't - he's probably going to be a borderline All-Star just based on his scoring ability alone (similar to Klay Thompson).

Excellent post Carlos. Couldn't say it better.

monsterpile wrote:We have gone round and round about Wiggins but if you aren't a little concerned about his doing other stuff other than scoring...come on be realistic. Having said that the last 3 or so games Wiggins has been really locked in and I think ultimately he will be fine but he has to at least get more 50/50 balls and sprint down the court 3x a game more on average. There is a measurable metric for ya. :)

For me, it's all about perspective. Wiggins is already an elite scorer. As far as "other stuff" if you compare him to our other Wings, I'm not seeing anything alarming:

Rebounds %:
Bazz - 9.4%
Wiggins - 6.0%
Prince - 5.9%
LaVine - 5.8%
Martin - 5.6%
Rudez - 4.0%

Bazz is an excellent rebounder. Wiggins holds a slight edge over the rest of the pack.

Ast%:
LaVine - 18.9%
Wiggins - 10.2%
Martin - 8.9%
Prince - 6.8%
Rudez - 6.2%
Bazz - 4.9%

LaVine played a lot of PG. Wiggins leads all other Wings.

Steal %
LaVine 1.4%
WIggins 1.3%
Prince 1.2%
Martin 1.0%
Bazz - .07%
Rudez .06%

Not a lot of separation. But Wiggins filters towards the top again.

Block %
Wiggins 1.4%
Prince - .08%
LaVine - .05%
Bazz - .04%
Rudez - .03%
Martin - .01%

Wiggins clear leader in blocks.

What else is there?