McCollum vs. Muhammad, revisited

[Papalrep]

None of these guys are studs. Karasev is weak and needs two seasons just to get enough strength to BE in the NBA. CJ has more of a chance to be Jimmer than a difference maker. Lousy draft

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Q, don't get me wrong...I think there are still a lot of unanswered questions about Shabazz.. My main point in starting this thread was to reiterate my belief that Flip made the correct choice in selecting Shabazz/Dieng over McCollum, albeit mostly because I perceived CJ as being an enormous risk at #9.

But I'll take a shot at what scouts have seen in Shabazz since his dominating AAU days, which in all fairness was only one season ago. At least this is what I've seen. They saw a guy set the all-time season scoring record for Pac 12 freshmen, despite having a point guard who froze him out and only seemed able to pass to Jordan Adams. The Pac 12 has had a long history, so that fact can not be overlooked. You have correctly pointed out the inefficiency in his scoring, but since this is a CJ/Shabazz thread, it is readily apparent that Shabazz was much more efficient than CJ when facing similar D1 competition (i.e, .disregard the service academies and the Quinipiacs). They saw a guy who had to add new facets to his scoring since he could no longer rely only on overpowering smaller defenders, so he improved his long distance shooting and ability to score on the fast break to complement his continuing ability to score on the offensive boards. And they may also have fantasized about how a player like Shabazz with his superior inside strength and quick left-handed release would flourish with a point guard who actually wanted to make him better.

Now, Summer League was a different story, because I found him to be a disappointment in the games I watched. But again, since this thread is intended to compare Shabazz and CJ, I found Shabazz to be by far the superior player. Yes, CJ scored better and actually rebounded well, but he was playing a completely different style of game than Shabazz. CJ looked like he was the consummate gunner playing at the Y, shooting every time he got the ball and making little effort to get his teammates involved, resulting in a shooting percentage around 35% and a team that never won a game. And defensively he was a joke...not quick enough to guard point guards and not big enough to guard shooting guards. At times he just looked disinterested defensively. Shabazz showed some technical flaws on defense, but nobody could accuse him of looking disinterested. He showed 100% effort on every defensive play, and his most glaring errors came when he overcommitted or took a bad angle...aspects that can improve with coaching.

So, except for summer league, I think the scouts saw in Shabazz a player with the ability and work ethic to reinvent himself rather than just relying on what has worked in the past. He will have to continue to do this in order to succeed in the NBA, and his off-season attempts to improve his right hand and his passing shows me that he is willing to do the work to make this happen. He had better, because getting minutes on this deep Wolves team will not be easy.

Solid take LST. I like the fact you've taken me to task here. As you would expect, I have a few points of your's that I would like to counter or supplement.

First, the whole idea that a wing like Shabazz somehow needs the right PG to "make him better" in and of itself is a damning statement. Most highly-touted wings don't need a very good PG to show their strengths. Why? Because they are typically capable of handling the ball, making plays, moving without the ball, and creating shots on their own. And we've already seen that Ricky Rubio could do very little with the likes of Aleksey Shved and Wes Johnson to make them better. Both of those players struggled mightily on offense whether they were playing with Ricky or not. And Ridnour's numbers never budged one way or the other when playing with or without Ricky.

As to your point about Shabazz reinventing himself, that is the one thing I hold onto with him and I have made the case repeatedly. He is best suited to be a 3 & D guy that spaces the floor, avoids putting it on the deck, makes safe passes, and generally plays a disciplined brand of basketball akin to players like Shane Battier, Keith Bogans, and Bruce Bowen. It's not sexy, but his build and skill-set is much more suited to becoming this type of player than the alpha dog scorer he's heretofore fashioned himself. Now the question is whether he will ever accept that as his destiny and then turn his attention into becoming a deadly corner 3 threat that can defend the hell out of opposing wings. Time will tell.....

[Monster]

I feel like my mind becomes boggled again every time I hear how Shabazz struggled so much going from HS to college his freshman year. Really? Come on sure he wasn't that efficient, but come on the wasn't that bad and he still put up a ton of points and his shooting percentages are really not that awful considering he was a freshman. I am not saying the guy is going to be a stud or doesn't have weaknesses becasue he does plus there are soem other issues we don't know how big they are, but saying he struggled as a freshman is silly to me. Hell the guy scored at a very similar rate in college as the sure superstar OJ Mayo. LOL Look people need to hope the guy turns out to be something but be realistic. #9 or #14 the odds of the guy being more than a rotation player are are not that good. Sit back enjoy the ride.

A couple other interesting things to consider. I watched a clip of some guys talking about Shabazz and Steve Kerr made and interesting point and comparision to Harrison Barnes. He said the expectation was very high for him and he couldn't take over a game couldn't handle the ball well enough and it turns out he can shoot well and play D and that makes him a pretty good player. Barnes didn't shoot the ball as well as Shabazz hsi freshman year. Anyway I though that was interesting.

Another thing is people say Shabazz doesn't bring anything other than scoring and thats not something I will disagree with too much I will point out his offensive rebounding was pretty good. He ranked 108th in the nation of all the players in division I basketball in offensive rebounds per game (Dieng was 22nd). Thats pretty good for a freshman wing. I think that simple fact that he got offensive rebounds at a healthy rate could indicate some positive things about him.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Always a great discussion on these boards, q, and I always appreciate the statistical information you provide. I freely admit to being an unabashed homer when it comes to my home teams, and I sometimes cling too long to facts (or opinions) that help me create a brighter picture. With Shabazz, it may turn out that I am putting too much emphasis on his pedigree and the frustration of watching Drew ignore him last year. I hope not, because we all want him to succeed. I just hope the Wolves version of Muhammad is closer to what we saw in high school and UCLA than what we saw in Summer League.

[bleedspeed]

The Harness Barnes connection is interesting. I would be happy with him as a 3&D guy at SF. He has the physical makeup to not get pushed around after he fills out.

[Porckchop]

It seems that there are alot of fans on here that just dont like Shabazz and a few do. So its easy to pull out some numbers to make your point either way.. Fact is he hasnt played a game yet and people are writing him off already. The anti-Shabazz side seem to be flashing their morality badges as a reason for the hate.. Seems a bit unfair at this point.
As far as pointing to Lillard as a reason for why you cant argue against small school players , my response is that for every 1-2 that work out ,theres a hundred failures. Not great odds.

[60WinTim]

Q might have to eat his hat! Maybe that minor transgression at the rookie program was a good thing -- it was a wakeup call...

http://www.startribune.com/sports/wolves/226240271.html

(while I hope to remain objective on Shabazz, my tongue is firmly planted in my cheek at the moment)

[bleedspeed]

I hope he keeps it up and makes it tough to keep him off the court.

[60WinTim]

And some more love for Shabazz in yesterday's Practice Report (I really like these - check them out if you haven't already!).

http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/news/training-camp-report-day-2-oct-2-2013

[60WinTim]

Sorry, can't help it. Q needs to take another bite off his hat:

http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/news/teammates-coaches-taking-notice-muhammads-play-camp