KiwiMatt wrote: ↑Wed May 03, 2023 5:44 pm3 Team Blockbuster Trade Idea
MIN receives: Dejounte Murray, Onyeka Okongwu and 1st RP (GSW's 2027 unprotected).
GSW receives: Karl Anthony Towns.
ATL receives: Jordan Poole, Jonathan Kuminga and two 2nd RP's (GSW's 2026 & 2028)
Why for MIN: moving on from KAT and his super max that kicks in after next season. We acquire board favorite Dejounte Murray (who we'd have to resign after next season) which solves our future PG issue. Onyeka Okongwu is still only 22 and has upside as a pick & roll and defensive player. Good rebounder and shot blocker. Also we would get GSW 2027 1st RP which would want to be unprotected and will likely be after the peak of GSW dynasty. We also clear close to 10 mil of cap space to help resign Naz and NAW. I might be undervaluing KAT a bit with this trade?
Starting lineup of Murray / Edwards / McDaniels / Reid / Gobert with Conley / NAW / Prince / Anderson / Okongwu off the bench.
Why for GSW: KAT gives them another few years of championship aspirations to pair with Curry, Thompson and Wiggins. Also gives them a replacement for Draymond Green who will be expecting to be resigned for more money than he's worth. Curry / Thompson / Wiggins / Towns / Looney starting lineup competes with anyone. Maybe this entices Green to resign for cheap.
Why for ATL - effectively shuffling the deck. It appears that Murray isn't an ideal fit next to Trae Young. Poole gives them another young, bonafide scorer on a longer term deal. Resigning Murray would likely cost them more next off season. Swapping Kuminga for Oyeka is a prospect swap but Kuminga is on his rookie scale contract for an extra year. They also get their 2026 and 2028 2nd RP picks back that they owe GSW. Not sure ATL would accept, being that they gave up three 1st RP's to get Murray, but I question his fit next to Trae who is really needs to play PG.
Pretty well thought out trade here Matt.
How is Murray as a team mate and off the floor? I thought there were some issues there, but I don't have any details.
That would be a PR disaster of a trade for Atlanta.
Plus, I don't know if it helps them much on the court. If D. Murray and T. Young struggled together... I fear for the fanbase (and every other Hawks player) having to watch Poole and Young trade turns dribbling and dribbling and dribbling on offense... while not even pretending to play defense.
Rumours afloat of Knicks being interested in acquiring KAT. Here's a trade idea:
MIN receives: Immanuel Quickley, Mitchell Robinson, Evan Fourier, 2025 1st RP (unprotected), 2027 1st RP (Top 3 protected),2029 1st RP (Top 5 protected), 2024 2nd RP and 2026 2nd RP.
NYK receives: Karl Anthony Towns and Wendell Moore Jr.
Why for Min? - Moving on from Towns. Immanuel Quickley is a great prospect, capable of playing both backcourt positions. Initially he'd be our 6th man, but would be groomed to become our starting PG post Conley. Mitchell Robinson gives us a solid back up center allowing a resigned Naz Reid to play PF a majority of the time where he is not so undersized. Also gives us insurance when Gobert misses games. Robinson's is signed to a reasonable contract through till 2025/26 with one of those weird contracts that actually decreases by about 1.5 mil every season. Fourier has been a shell of his former self this season but has a 19 mil team option after next season which will be declined. This, Conley' expiring contract and shedding KATs super max contract before it kicks in would allow us to resign Edwards, McDaniels and Quickley to long term deals and give us a bit more financial flexibility. Three future 1st RP picks with little or no protection is the best part of the deal and would help us regain some of what we gave up to get Gobert. Starting lineup:
Conley / Edwards / McDaniels / Reid / Gobert Second lineup:
Quickley / NAW / Anderson / Prince / Robinson
Why for NYK? - Acquire home town super star KAT. Gives them another offensive juggernaut to pair next Julius Randle, which would create the best offensive front court in the league. Both are inside - out threats offensively and are good rebounders. Wendell Moore Jr gives them a prospect and backcourt depth. Shed Fourier's contract for the 2023/24 season. Mortgage their future for a win now mentality. Would make them Championship contenders in the East. Starting lineup:
Brunson / Barrett / Hart / Randle / Towns Second lineup:
Rose / Grimes / Toppin / Roby / Hartenstein
Their front court would be the worst in the league defensively by a mile. They're in effect getting the same guy (offensively talented but defensively deficient bigs who melt down in the playoffs). The hometown angle doesn't even work as well because they turned down Donovan Mitchell who's more popular than KAT is locally (NY tolerates Randle. They'd have less patience for KAT considering if you left it up to the Knicks, they'd rather monitor Luka's situation in the slim chance that they can land him than settle for KAT and have their 3 best players be minuses defensively.) Not to mention Thibs.
If the Knicks considered this, they'd do everything to keep their own picks away and give you the firsts that have more protection (Dallas, Washington, Detroit)
As for the Wolves
Gobert = $40 mil a year
Reid = $15-18 mil a year (to never play center again)
McDaniels 4-5 years, $100-$125 mil
Edwards = max
Quickley = $90-$100 mil
You'd have to die on this hill because this is as good as you're making it for Ant.
The Knicks would try to sic Randle on y'all instead. The Knicks are gonna pivot towards Luka and Embiid with an outside shot at Giannis if that situation goes to hell.
Matt - Your Knicks trade idea is really well thought out. I think the Knicks would take that deal in a heartbeat. If I were in TC’s shoes I wouldn’t do that deal. It’s not a bad deal for the Wolves, but it’s not enough in my view. It would leave Edwards with far too much responsibility for scoring.
Watching this year’s playoffs is another reminder that playoff success requires at least two elite scorers along with another one or two really good scorers. The Celtics have Tatum and Brown as their elite two scorers, along with Smart, White and Brogdon as very good scorers. The Sixers have Harden and Embiid as their two elite scorers, along with Maxey and Harris. The Nuggets have Jokic and Murray. The Suns have Durant and Booker. KAT and Edwards provide the scoring duo essential to being a contender in the NBA.
Trading KAT to the Knicks for the assets you suggested would be a good trade if the Wolves were rebuilding. But that’s not where this team is at. They finished 10 games over .500 last season and made the playoffs again this season. They have a budding superstar heading into his 4th season and another really talented young player, Jaden, also entering his 4th season. If the Wolves trade KAT the deal should bring back someone like Mika’s Bridges. Otherwise, I think the organization needs to roll with KAT and thank their lucky stars that Edwards has come along, which means KAT doesn’t have to be the team’s #1.
Yeah, watching the Nuggets/Phoenix game was a master class in shot-making. Holy. Shit. Durant, Booker, Murray, and Jokic just put on a show.
I don't know how Miami does it with Butler, Bam, and a bunch of gritty role players, but they are really the exception to most these other teams in the conference semi-finals. Most of them have multiple shot makers, as Lip mentioned above. But at some point Butler is either going to get hurt, worn out, or slowed and Miami's playoff run will end.
The reality is we only have two guys on the roster capable of putting up 30 on any given night: Ant and KAT. May be McDaniels keeps growing and can be that kind of player too eventually (?), but that is far from a given at this point.
Any trade involving KAT has to bring back another all-star caliber scorer/shot creator. Ant and a bunch of really good role players won't be enough to get us very far.
Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 10:13 am
Yeah, watching the Nuggets/Phoenix game was a master class in shot-making. Holy. Shit. Durant, Booker, Murray, and Jokic just put on a show.
I don't know how Miami does it with Butler, Bam, and a bunch of gritty role players, but they are really the exception to most these other teams in the conference semi-finals. Most of them have multiple shot makers, as Lip mentioned above. But at some point Butler is either going to get hurt, worn out, or slowed and Miami's playoff run will end.
The reality is we only have two guys on the roster capable of putting up 30 on any given night: Ant and KAT. May be McDaniels keeps growing and can be that kind of player too eventually (?), but that is far from a given at this point.
Any trade involving KAT has to bring back another all-star caliber scorer/shot creator. Ant and a bunch of really good role players won't be enough to get us very far.
I actually think the Wolves could progress by going more heavy on defense. Defensive players are on avg undervalued by the league, but the key to get it to work you can't have a glaring weak spot on defense either. Teams can attack that weak spot. (DLO and KAT).
Let's say the offense is mid pack but the defense is top 5. You now are outscoring the opponents by more which is the actual point of the game. For so long since KG left we have had a terrible defense. Last year was the first time we ended up in the top 10. Not 27th or 28th like so many years (bottom 5) with KAT. Love wasn't good either, neither was Jefferson. We've constantly had crappy defense and it's no surprise why we are the worst franchise because of it.
Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 10:13 am
Yeah, watching the Nuggets/Phoenix game was a master class in shot-making. Holy. Shit. Durant, Booker, Murray, and Jokic just put on a show.
I don't know how Miami does it with Butler, Bam, and a bunch of gritty role players, but they are really the exception to most these other teams in the conference semi-finals. Most of them have multiple shot makers, as Lip mentioned above. But at some point Butler is either going to get hurt, worn out, or slowed and Miami's playoff run will end.
The reality is we only have two guys on the roster capable of putting up 30 on any given night: Ant and KAT. May be McDaniels keeps growing and can be that kind of player too eventually (?), but that is far from a given at this point.
Any trade involving KAT has to bring back another all-star caliber scorer/shot creator. Ant and a bunch of really good role players won't be enough to get us very far.
I actually think the Wolves could progress by going more heavy on defense. Defensive players are on avg undervalued by the league, but the key to get it to work you can't have a glaring weak spot on defense either. Teams can attack that weak spot. (DLO and KAT).
Let's say the offense is mid pack but the defense is top 5. You now are outscoring the opponents by more which is the actual point of the game. For so long since KG left we have had a terrible defense. Last year was the first time we ended up in the top 10. Not 27th or 28th like so many years (bottom 5) with KAT. Love wasn't good either, neither was Jefferson. We've constantly had crappy defense and it's no surprise why we are the worst franchise because of it.
Well, that's definitely the Miami formula. I do think they eventually run out of horsepower, but it probably won't be until the next round.
I don't disagree that one strategy for the Wolves would be to lean into our defense. That means not trading Gobert, signing NAW, and letting Nowell walk this offseason. But if we were to trade KAT for another more defensive-oriented player + picks, then I believe the law of diminishing marginal utility comes into play: Each incremental defensive-oriented player we add to the team adds less of a benefit if we're already really good on that end.
Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 10:13 am
Yeah, watching the Nuggets/Phoenix game was a master class in shot-making. Holy. Shit. Durant, Booker, Murray, and Jokic just put on a show.
I don't know how Miami does it with Butler, Bam, and a bunch of gritty role players, but they are really the exception to most these other teams in the conference semi-finals. Most of them have multiple shot makers, as Lip mentioned above. But at some point Butler is either going to get hurt, worn out, or slowed and Miami's playoff run will end.
The reality is we only have two guys on the roster capable of putting up 30 on any given night: Ant and KAT. May be McDaniels keeps growing and can be that kind of player too eventually (?), but that is far from a given at this point.
Any trade involving KAT has to bring back another all-star caliber scorer/shot creator. Ant and a bunch of really good role players won't be enough to get us very far.
I actually think the Wolves could progress by going more heavy on defense. Defensive players are on avg undervalued by the league, but the key to get it to work you can't have a glaring weak spot on defense either. Teams can attack that weak spot. (DLO and KAT).
Let's say the offense is mid pack but the defense is top 5. You now are outscoring the opponents by more which is the actual point of the game. For so long since KG left we have had a terrible defense. Last year was the first time we ended up in the top 10. Not 27th or 28th like so many years (bottom 5) with KAT. Love wasn't good either, neither was Jefferson. We've constantly had crappy defense and it's no surprise why we are the worst franchise because of it.
Well, that's definitely the Miami formula. I do think they eventually run out of horsepower, but it probably won't be until the next round.
I don't disagree that one strategy for the Wolves would be to lean into our defense. That means not trading Gobert, signing NAW, and letting Nowell walk this offseason. But if we were to trade KAT for another more defensive-oriented player + picks, then I believe the law of diminishing marginal utility comes into play: Each incremental defensive-oriented player we add to the team adds less of a benefit if we're already really good on that end.
At some point you are right that a small increase of one player on defense versus another can make little difference. I think though going from say KAT to an above avg defender could replace KAT all together. I mean the Wolves played pretty fine without him for 50 games or whatever. I just don't think KAT makes that much difference to overall wins and losses. What he gives on offense he mostly gives up on defense with high fouling and just bad defense in general.
I think if you concentrate on going defense though, like I said you can't really have weak spots. Because teams can and do attack it. They have gone at DLO, Steph Curry (who did improve for sure over the years), KAT and other one way guys. It's smart to make them tired and get the in foul trouble (KAT). And it's not like KAT has proven to be a winning player in the playoffs either. His numbers drop in the playoffs while real superstars get better. He has shrunk.
I actually think the Wolves could progress by going more heavy on defense. Defensive players are on avg undervalued by the league, but the key to get it to work you can't have a glaring weak spot on defense either. Teams can attack that weak spot. (DLO and KAT).
Let's say the offense is mid pack but the defense is top 5. You now are outscoring the opponents by more which is the actual point of the game. For so long since KG left we have had a terrible defense. Last year was the first time we ended up in the top 10. Not 27th or 28th like so many years (bottom 5) with KAT. Love wasn't good either, neither was Jefferson. We've constantly had crappy defense and it's no surprise why we are the worst franchise because of it.
Well, that's definitely the Miami formula. I do think they eventually run out of horsepower, but it probably won't be until the next round.
I don't disagree that one strategy for the Wolves would be to lean into our defense. That means not trading Gobert, signing NAW, and letting Nowell walk this offseason. But if we were to trade KAT for another more defensive-oriented player + picks, then I believe the law of diminishing marginal utility comes into play: Each incremental defensive-oriented player we add to the team adds less of a benefit if we're already really good on that end.
At some point you are right that a small increase of one player on defense versus another can make little difference. I think though going from say KAT to an above avg defender could replace KAT all together. I mean the Wolves played pretty fine without him for 50 games or whatever. I just don't think KAT makes that much difference to overall wins and losses. What he gives on offense he mostly gives up on defense with high fouling and just bad defense in general.
I think if you concentrate on going defense though, like I said you can't really have weak spots. Because teams can and do attack it. They have gone at DLO, Steph Curry (who did improve for sure over the years), KAT and other one way guys. It's smart to make them tired and get the in foul trouble (KAT). And it's not like KAT has proven to be a winning player in the playoffs either. His numbers drop in the playoffs while real superstars get better. He has shrunk.
The problem with this identity is that if you try to turn every game into a rock fight, you have zero answers for teams that either shoot really well or shoot outside in high volume. Guys who are above average defensively and offensively are hard to find. We're gonna pay McDaniels $100-$125 mil and we don't even know if the offense will ever be consistent enough to buoy his defense.
