Minnesota Sports Forum

bleedspeed177 wrote:So what level is IT at compared to Kyrie and Love? Above, same, or below?

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:I blame D'antoni. He is so rigid in his system and seems to blame everyone else for his failure. Minor adjustments could have won the series already. Yes 3 pts are more than 2, but it has been at the cost of good shots on multiple occasions, especially when it matters most. Surprise, surprise, a D'antoni teams chokes at crunch time when teams flip to iso ball. It's an old story with him.

I disagree.

I've written this before... and it's a well-known axiom in the NBA... SUPERSTAR PLAYERS WIN GAMES! The moment 50 - 65-year-old guys in suits have more influence on a game than a leading MVP candidate... I'm done watching my favorite sport. Forever.

D'Antoni isn't forcing Ryan Anderson to shoot a three pointer on a 4-on-1 fast break (it went in). And he's not forcing the guy who's supposed to set the screen to Harden to have a brain fart and forget. And he's not forcing Harden to shrug and launch a contested three instead. He's not forcing Harden to dance and shoot three pointers when Lamarcus Aldridge switches on to him. He's not the reason Harden was stripped from behind 2x in OT.

Coaching matters. But players matter more. SO MUCH MORE. That being said, I'm going to talk out of both sides of my mouth now... Popovich is amazing. (To be fair though... it's not like he forced Danny Green to drive and get his first "and 1" of the entire season late in OT.)



[Note: As an ardent "fan" of D'Antoni's Suns teams... I don't remember a time his team choked in the playoffs. I always felt like they lost to better teams or while giving legit effort and performances in some tough situations with some shoddy luck.]

Houston's superstar has taken the highest % of 3pt shots in his career 49% and the lowest percentage of midrange 16+ feet 5% in his career since his second season when he had a different role (more spot up on those early OKC teams). Those numbers have changed to 51% and 2% in this playoffs. Last 3 playoffs 30% of Harden's shots were from 10ft-3pt line. This year they are 7%. Did he come to this revelation on his own?

Yes superstars win games, and coaches give them the system and the personnel decisions through substitutions and rest to do that. I think D'antoni preaches a system that has regular season sucess and isn't built for the playoffs. As for the Suns they are fond to remember, I'm sure there is little that I can do to convince you as you were a fan. There is a website that list historical clutch time stats.

http://www.nbaminer.com/clutch-time-stats/

Not many Suns on the top end in the playoffs even in their greatest runs, call it bad luck or better opponents I guess. Whatever happened they couldn't deliver when it mattered.

I'm not saying coaches should be analyzed to the depths of the NFL for instance. But coaches there get fired for bad clock management. D'antoni rejects varying his pace of play religiously.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:I blame D'antoni. He is so rigid in his system and seems to blame everyone else for his failure. Minor adjustments could have won the series already. Yes 3 pts are more than 2, but it has been at the cost of good shots on multiple occasions, especially when it matters most. Surprise, surprise, a D'antoni teams chokes at crunch time when teams flip to iso ball. It's an old story with him.

I disagree.

I've written this before... and it's a well-known axiom in the NBA... SUPERSTAR PLAYERS WIN GAMES! The moment 50 - 65-year-old guys in suits have more influence on a game than a leading MVP candidate... I'm done watching my favorite sport. Forever.

D'Antoni isn't forcing Ryan Anderson to shoot a three pointer on a 4-on-1 fast break (it went in). And he's not forcing the guy who's supposed to set the screen to Harden to have a brain fart and forget. And he's not forcing Harden to shrug and launch a contested three instead. He's not forcing Harden to dance and shoot three pointers when Lamarcus Aldridge switches on to him. He's not the reason Harden was stripped from behind 2x in OT.

Coaching matters. But players matter more. SO MUCH MORE. That being said, I'm going to talk out of both sides of my mouth now... Popovich is amazing. (To be fair though... it's not like he forced Danny Green to drive and get his first "and 1" of the entire season late in OT.)



[Note: As an ardent "fan" of D'Antoni's Suns teams... I don't remember a time his team choked in the playoffs. I always felt like they lost to better teams or while giving legit effort and performances in some tough situations with some shoddy luck.]

Houston's superstar has taken the highest % of 3pt shots in his career 49% and the lowest percentage of midrange 16+ feet 5% in his career since his second season when he had a different role (more spot up on those early OKC teams). Those numbers have changed to 51% and 2% in this playoffs. Last 3 playoffs 30% of Harden's shots were from 10ft-3pt line. This year they are 7%. Did he come to this revelation on his own?

Yes superstars win games, and coaches give them the system and the personnel decisions through substitutions and rest to do that. I think D'antoni preaches a system that has regular season sucess and isn't built for the playoffs. As for the Suns they are fond to remember, I'm sure there is little that I can do to convince you as you were a fan. There is a website that list historical clutch time stats.

http://www.nbaminer.com/clutch-time-stats/

Not many Suns on the top end in the playoffs even in their greatest runs, call it bad luck or better opponents I guess. Whatever happened they couldn't deliver when it mattered.

I'm not saying coaches should be analyzed to the depths of the NFL for instance. But coaches there get fired for bad clock management. D'antoni rejects varying his pace of play religiously.

If you think I can't be objective just because I'm a fan... you must not have read any of my previous 4,300+ posts on this forum.

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:I blame D'antoni. He is so rigid in his system and seems to blame everyone else for his failure. Minor adjustments could have won the series already. Yes 3 pts are more than 2, but it has been at the cost of good shots on multiple occasions, especially when it matters most. Surprise, surprise, a D'antoni teams chokes at crunch time when teams flip to iso ball. It's an old story with him.

I disagree.

I've written this before... and it's a well-known axiom in the NBA... SUPERSTAR PLAYERS WIN GAMES! The moment 50 - 65-year-old guys in suits have more influence on a game than a leading MVP candidate... I'm done watching my favorite sport. Forever.

D'Antoni isn't forcing Ryan Anderson to shoot a three pointer on a 4-on-1 fast break (it went in). And he's not forcing the guy who's supposed to set the screen to Harden to have a brain fart and forget. And he's not forcing Harden to shrug and launch a contested three instead. He's not forcing Harden to dance and shoot three pointers when Lamarcus Aldridge switches on to him. He's not the reason Harden was stripped from behind 2x in OT.

Coaching matters. But players matter more. SO MUCH MORE. That being said, I'm going to talk out of both sides of my mouth now... Popovich is amazing. (To be fair though... it's not like he forced Danny Green to drive and get his first "and 1" of the entire season late in OT.)



[Note: As an ardent "fan" of D'Antoni's Suns teams... I don't remember a time his team choked in the playoffs. I always felt like they lost to better teams or while giving legit effort and performances in some tough situations with some shoddy luck.]

Houston's superstar has taken the highest % of 3pt shots in his career 49% and the lowest percentage of midrange 16+ feet 5% in his career since his second season when he had a different role (more spot up on those early OKC teams). Those numbers have changed to 51% and 2% in this playoffs. Last 3 playoffs 30% of Harden's shots were from 10ft-3pt line. This year they are 7%. Did he come to this revelation on his own?

Yes superstars win games, and coaches give them the system and the personnel decisions through substitutions and rest to do that. I think D'antoni preaches a system that has regular season sucess and isn't built for the playoffs. As for the Suns they are fond to remember, I'm sure there is little that I can do to convince you as you were a fan. There is a website that list historical clutch time stats.

http://www.nbaminer.com/clutch-time-stats/

Not many Suns on the top end in the playoffs even in their greatest runs, call it bad luck or better opponents I guess. Whatever happened they couldn't deliver when it mattered.

I'm not saying coaches should be analyzed to the depths of the NFL for instance. But coaches there get fired for bad clock management. D'antoni rejects varying his pace of play religiously.

If you think I can't be objective just because I'm a fan... you must not have read any of my previous 4,300+ posts on this forum.

You can be as objective as I am for not being a fan of D'antoni. Bias, liking the way players play, is all part of the equation. That doesn't make you unfair as I see it. I do believe calling the Suns playoff history "Bad luck" isn't really an objective statement though. Either way I wasn't trying to write off what you're saying, or diminish your perspective, or your valuable contributing to this board by calling you a fan. I just assumed that your viewpoint was fixed on this issue, my bad. It's totally legit to like those Suns teams and D'antoni. And there's lots of evidence for his success and their merits as a team. I just think he has a bigger negative impact on his teams and is too rigid in his philosophy.

Q12543 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:So what level is IT at compared to Kyrie and Love? Above, same, or below?

Kyrie is actually a great comparison for IT. Both are scoring PGs versus elite play making PGs and both are kind of weak defensively.

I take Kyrie over IT every day of the week. I just think his size and strength, relative to IT, is better suited to creating shots in crunch time against elite defensive teams, which is what happens deep in the playoffs and Finals. And he's also less of a defensive match up problem than IT.

I will also say that IT is uniquely suited to Boston. They desperately needed a guy that could generate points and create shots, something IT was actually pretty darn good at well before coming to Boston. But then they have a bunch of perimeter defensive bull dogs around him in Bradley, Crowder, and Smart that can check the opponent's best guard and wing, allowing IT to guard the 3rd weakest offensive player of the opponents PG/SG/SF trio.

I don't mean to say that IT is anything less than a great player. But is he elite? I'm skeptical.