Minnesota Sports Forum

khans2k5 wrote:Buddy for Wiggins is just a bad panic trade to try to give us one skill we lack in 3pt shooting. Wiggins is better Jimmy insurance and he was starting to put it together defensively last year so I would expect him to make a jump on that end. Then you bring up his shooting percentages a little bit after a really down year and you have someone significantly better than Hield. Hield getting ousted in the starting lineup by Temple is all you need to know about him. He couldn't start for the 7th worst team in the league. Just more stat guys on bad teams. Yet for some reason Wiggins stats only matter when he's the 3rd or 4th option and people forget what he was putting up as a top 2 option which he would be again if Jimmy left.

I wouldn't call it a panic trade, rather I'd say it's getting good value for a poor asset, but alas we are on the opposite side of the fence when it comes to Wiggins so this take does not surprise me.

Wiggins did improve defensively -- both statistically and based on the eye test -- as he went from posting a -2.9 DBPM in 2016-17 to a -1.4 DBPM last year.

The issue is that:
A. That's still not a good mark for someone set to make $25M.
B. He doesn't make up for it on the offensive end, nor is he required to be a top-two option.
C. How much of that improvement is Wiggins and how much of it is Jimmy Butler taking the more difficult defensive assignment?
D. Someone with Wiggins' physical tools/ability should be making their presence felt defensively a lot more than he does.

Hield getting assigned to being the sixth man has less to do with his ability and more to do with his individual progression and coach's prerogative. It's similar to how Victor Oladipo came off the bench in Orlando in his rookie season and even during the 2015-16 season.

You use the "stat guy on a bad team" phrase to knock players, but isn't it more telling that Wiggins was an OK stats guy on bad teams, and now he's a poor stats guy on a good team? Not to mention he's regressed in just about every facet of the game. It's a weak debate tool in this case is what I'm getting at.

Lastly, Wiggins averaged 18.9 PPG (44.5 / 37.9 / 68.2), 4.6 RPG, 2.5 APG, and 1.2 SPG in the 17 games after Butler was injured in late February. Small sample aside, those aren't bad numbers. The Wolves went 8-9 over that stretch so they weren't necessarily empty numbers either. But it always comes back to the question of where is THAT player over an 82-game season. It shouldn't take an All-NBA player being injured for Wiggins to wake up and play better basketball.

I also don't think you're accounting for team fit/need and styles of play, but it's not going to change your mind.

The Kings aren't a bad team because they don't have NBA players espcially wings but because they basically have no guys on their roster that are above average starters at any position at least not yet. Their wings might be sort of a strength for them. Garrett Temple is a versatile player that a lot of teams would love to have on their roster. He is the type of player you hope one of the fringe type guys you bring on tot he roster becomes. Bogdonivic seemed to me one of their best players...he had a nice season but if he is in consideration for best player on a team that's not good. Maybe Buddy was getting the Zach Lavine treatment. If you believe in Wiggins Buddy probably isn't enough in return. I disnt watch enough to know how good Buddy is although I remember hearing some stat about he was one of the best transition players in the league in some way which I found surprising an fascinating...Wiggins should be in that conversation.

crazy-canuck wrote:Lol, the bucks didn't pull Jabari qo as originally reported. I wonder if the bulls only gave 2 years because they thought he was unrestricted.

Bucks can now match a more manageable contract or get something from the bulls in a s&t.

If that's true the biggest thing is that the reported deal was 2 years 40 million and the 2nd was a TEAM OPTION. I'm not sure they can do that part now. I'm too lazy to look it up. Regardless he is going to Chicago.

Camden0916 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Sacramento Kings:
- SG Buddy Hield (2-yrs, $8.7M -- $6.5M QO in 2020-21)
- C Kosta Koufos (1-yr, $8.7M)
- SG/SF Iman Shumpert (1-yr, $11.0M)

Minnesota Wolves:
- SF Andrew Wiggins (5-yrs, $146.5M)
- C Gorgui Dieng (3-yrs, $48.7M)

Salary dump just so we can afford to pay Jimmy and stay under the luxury tax? I'd rather take our chances with Wiggins development than Buddy. Not your best work Cam. Clearly you don't like Wiggins but shouldn't feel that desperate to move him.

The Wolves would arguably be getting the best player in the deal [Buddy Hield] and clearing a ton of money off the books. Minnesota also adds an efficient volume three-point shooter -- 43.1% on 5.1 3PA last year in 25.3 MPG -- to an already potent offense. Hield likely fits next to Towns and Butler a lot better than Wiggins does while still being just 24-years old. I could see Hield developing very much in the same way that Bradley Beal has, though I don't believe his ceiling is quite as high as Beal's. I knew this hypothetical trade idea would rub some of the pro-Wiggins' potential camp the wrong way, but I honestly intended it to be more of a trade discussion rather than a "let's bash Wiggins" post.

Per 36
Player A: 19.2 PPG (.557 TS%), 5.5 RPG, 2.8 APG, 1.5 SPG -- 16.1 PER, 0.9 VORP, 2.8 WS

Player B: 17.5 PPG (.505 TS%), 4.3 RPG, 1.9 APG, 1.1 SPG -- 13.0 PER, -0.4 VORP, 2.1 WS

I was keeping it in the trade discussion vain. It's an awful trade, and would be the epitomy of selling low on an asset. Extroplating per 36 numbers on a 2nd unit player is how we ended up with Cole Aldrich. Buddy Hield is not a better player than Wiggins outside of your imagination and imaginative manipuilation of stats.

Camden0916 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Buddy for Wiggins is just a bad panic trade to try to give us one skill we lack in 3pt shooting. Wiggins is better Jimmy insurance and he was starting to put it together defensively last year so I would expect him to make a jump on that end. Then you bring up his shooting percentages a little bit after a really down year and you have someone significantly better than Hield. Hield getting ousted in the starting lineup by Temple is all you need to know about him. He couldn't start for the 7th worst team in the league. Just more stat guys on bad teams. Yet for some reason Wiggins stats only matter when he's the 3rd or 4th option and people forget what he was putting up as a top 2 option which he would be again if Jimmy left.

I wouldn't call it a panic trade, rather I'd say it's getting good value for a poor asset, but alas we are on the opposite side of the fence when it comes to Wiggins so this take does not surprise me.

Wiggins did improve defensively -- both statistically and based on the eye test -- as he went from posting a -2.9 DBPM in 2016-17 to a -1.4 DBPM last year.

The issue is that:
A. That's still not a good mark for someone set to make $25M.
B. He doesn't make up for it on the offensive end, nor is he required to be a top-two option.
C. How much of that improvement is Wiggins and how much of it is Jimmy Butler taking the more difficult defensive assignment?
D. Someone with Wiggins' physical tools/ability should be making their presence felt defensively a lot more than he does.

Hield getting assigned to being the sixth man has less to do with his ability and more to do with his individual progression and coach's prerogative. It's similar to how Victor Oladipo came off the bench in Orlando in his rookie season and even during the 2015-16 season.

You use the "stat guy on a bad team" phrase to knock players, but isn't it more telling that Wiggins was an OK stats guy on bad teams, and now he's a poor stats guy on a good team? Not to mention he's regressed in just about every facet of the game. It's a weak debate tool in this case is what I'm getting at.

Lastly, Wiggins averaged 18.9 PPG (44.5 / 37.9 / 68.2), 4.6 RPG, 2.5 APG, and 1.2 SPG in the 17 games after Butler was injured in late February. Small sample aside, those aren't bad numbers. The Wolves went 8-9 over that stretch so they weren't necessarily empty numbers either. But it always comes back to the question of where is THAT player over an 82-game season. It shouldn't take an All-NBA player being injured for Wiggins to wake up and play better basketball.

I also don't think you're accounting for team fit/need and styles of play, but it's not going to change your mind.

Wiggins was a top 10 scorer in the NBA prior to Jimmy. His good stats bad team scoring numbers were just better. He got to the line at will and scored at the basket. You can say good stats bad team is a weak argument, but I would say not playing because of coaching politics on a piss poor team is an even worse one. Good players play. They don't get bench duty just because of politics. Then Jimmy comes in and Wiggins floats even more because he's involved even less and often is given the ball with little time on the shot clock to do much with it. It takes time to go from the #1 guy to sometimes the #4 guy when Teague is feeling it. And to make that adjustment at 23 is even harder. Jimmy wasn't plug and play like KD or CP3. There's a whole new hierarchy still being worked on with our team.

I also am accounting for team fit and need it's just people seem to think 1 3pt shooter fixes all our shooting woes and it just doesn't. Wiggins defensive potential is much higher than Buddy's and his shot isn't broken so he can still improve his shooting percentages. He can defend multiple positions because of his length. His athletic profile is built for the new age of the NBA. The Warriors and Rockets aren't prolific shooting teams because of 1 guy. They have multiple so this idea that one shooter is gonna solve that problem for us just isn't a real solution. So I would rather have another guy who can get his shot when he needs to and hope his shooting improves enough than have someone who's just gonna have his man stick to him like glue because he's the only perimeter shooter on the wings. It's not a perfect fit, but the things Wiggins does well will benefit this team more than a volume 3pt shooter who doesn't give you much else.

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:Sacramento Kings:
- SG Buddy Hield (2-yrs, $8.7M -- $6.5M QO in 2020-21)
- C Kosta Koufos (1-yr, $8.7M)
- SG/SF Iman Shumpert (1-yr, $11.0M)

Minnesota Wolves:
- SF Andrew Wiggins (5-yrs, $146.5M)
- C Gorgui Dieng (3-yrs, $48.7M)

Interesting thought, Cam. I'd be more inclined to consider this one if Butler had signed the extension he was just offered. But it's not as attractive to me if Butler leaves as a FA next summer, which I'm convinced he will.

Interesting deal Cam. I would ask for Bogdanovic instead of Shumpert though. I would take both if they'd rather dump the salary.

KiwiMatt wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:Sacramento Kings:
- SG Buddy Hield (2-yrs, $8.7M -- $6.5M QO in 2020-21)
- C Kosta Koufos (1-yr, $8.7M)
- SG/SF Iman Shumpert (1-yr, $11.0M)

Minnesota Wolves:
- SF Andrew Wiggins (5-yrs, $146.5M)
- C Gorgui Dieng (3-yrs, $48.7M)

Interesting thought, Cam. I'd be more inclined to consider this one if Butler had signed the extension he was just offered. But it's not as attractive to me if Butler leaves as a FA next summer, which I'm convinced he will.

Interesting deal Cam. I would ask for Bogdanovic instead of Shumpert though. I would take both if they'd rather dump the salary.

I'm not even sure the Kings would do the deal I proposed, and asking for Bogdanovic would be smart, but I find it unlikely they'd include him in this trade as is.

Interesting but not that surprising.

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/nba-news/713409/bjelica-has-not-signed-with-the-sixers-yet-and-europe-might-be-an-option/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1531833048

"Bjelica has not signed with the Sixers yet and Europe might be an option

via @NikosVarlas

| Eurohoops"


https://twitter.com/jonkrawczynski/status/1019222158520832000?s=21

I have confirmed that this is the case for Bjelica. With a young family he is looking at all of his options

monsterpile wrote:Interesting but not that surprising.

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/nba-news/713409/bjelica-has-not-signed-with-the-sixers-yet-and-europe-might-be-an-option/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1531833048

"Bjelica has not signed with the Sixers yet and Europe might be an option

via @NikosVarlas

| Eurohoops"


https://twitter.com/jonkrawczynski/status/1019222158520832000?s=21

I have confirmed that this is the case for Bjelica. With a young family he is looking at all of his options

Very interesting. Maybe Belly will come back to the Wolves for the minimum. I know he liked living here and felt comfortable with his family in this community. He also liked his teammates. Apparently, he's a pretty shy guy. So I can see him considering Eastern Europe as familiar surroundings for himself and his family. But Minnesota would seem to be a natural second choice for familiar surroundings if he still wants to play in the NBA. Bazz came back for less last summer. So maybe Belly will come back for less this summer. Stranger things have happened.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Interesting but not that surprising.

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/nba-news/713409/bjelica-has-not-signed-with-the-sixers-yet-and-europe-might-be-an-option/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1531833048

"Bjelica has not signed with the Sixers yet and Europe might be an option

via @NikosVarlas

| Eurohoops"


https://twitter.com/jonkrawczynski/status/1019222158520832000?s=21

I have confirmed that this is the case for Bjelica. With a young family he is looking at all of his options

Very interesting. Maybe Belly will come back to the Wolves for the minimum. I know he liked living here and felt comfortable with his family in this community. He also liked his teammates. Apparently, he's a pretty shy guy. So I can see him considering Eastern Europe as familiar surroundings for himself and his family. But Minnesota would seem to be a natural second choice for familiar surroundings if he still wants to play in the NBA. Bazz came back for less last summer. So maybe Belly will come back for less this summer. Stranger things have happened.

Woj has tweeted Belly already back to Europe. Was just notifying the 76ers that he wouldn't be signing the deal.