Minnesota Sports Forum

Camden wrote:LeBron James > Bill Russell

Come on now. I respect the rings Bill has, but the league is a different beast than it was then with more teams to boot.

I imagine I'm the only one here who has seen them both play live, and as dominant as Russell was on defense and the boards, he isn't even in the same conversation with LeBron. Russell was a terrible offensive player, who only averaged 15 PPG for his career because of putbacks. He was remarkably inefficient scorer too, with an EFG% of only 44%. The only center of the 50s and 60s who can be talked about in the same breath as today's players is Wilt Chamberlain. While Russell would be solely a defensive role player in today's NBA, I have no doubt that Chamberlain would be in the MVP discussion every year...his combination of size, athleticism and skill (except at the free throw line) translates into any era. His statistics were unbelievable. If you throw out his final 5 years with the Lakers, when his stats "dropped off" to 18 PPG and 19 RPG, his career stats were 42 PPG and 25 RPG! And while he could be a disinterested defensive player at times, he could be a prolific shotblocker when he wanted to be.

By the way, for those who have argued that Thibs makes his players play too many minutes, or that Saunders worked Wiggins too much last year, Wilt averaged 46 minutes per game for his career, and still had enough left in the tank to play all 82 games his final three years. Russell averaged over 42 MPG for his career. and played at least 76 games in each of his final 9 seasons.

And that concludes tonight's episode of "Geezer Talk".

monsterpile wrote:The comparisons are fun and also very subjective especially when you go across eras especially back to Bill Russell. Imo when it comes to this stuff keep it fun celebrate the players accomplishments people see guys differently that's totally reasonable there have been a lot of really special players just in the past 30 years.

Lebron is a heck of a player and will go down as one of the best players of all time and this is coming from someone that's never really been a fan. I've just never connected with him for some reason. His game is a little different than anyone else I can think of. He is kind of a combination of Magic (passing) Jordan athletically (gifted and more of an attacking player) and KG (in that he is able to do just about anything really well) plus Lebron is built bigger than a guy like Artest. I'm not saying Lebron takes every good thing from those guys and makes him the best it's just he is a very unique guy not a take over at will scorer but a guy looking to pass but also is the most powerful wing player we may ever see but very explosive. It's a special and quite frankly odd combination because some of his traits seem opposite of what you might expect given his physical makeup.

To me he is a combo of Magic and Shaq. Has the skill of magic and the power (for a wing) of Shaq. And like Shaq he gets away with a ton of offensive fouls. I think LeBron and Shaq's strength allows them to dominate like they do.

My top 10

1) MJ
2) Magic
3) Kobe
4) Lebron
5) Bird
6) Wilt
7) Kareem
8) Olajuwon
9) Duncan
10) West

CoolBreeze44 wrote:My top 10

1) MJ
2) Magic
3) Kobe
4) Lebron
5) Bird
6) Wilt
7) Kareem
8) Olajuwon
9) Duncan
10) West

My top 10
1)MJ
2)Kareem
3)Magic
4)kobe
5)bird
6)Duncan
7)Wilt/Russell
8) Hakeem
9 )LeBron
10)Oscar
I fully expect LeBron to be at the top with Jordan when it's all said n done. He still has a another 8 years in him .

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Oscar
5. Jabbar
6. LeBron
7. Bird
8. Baylor
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Bryant

I had to cheat because I couldn't decide between Kobe and Hakeem. Of the current players, Durant probably makes the list by the time it's over. Duncan does not. The other candidates currently playing are too early in their careers to say. My list ranks players based on how they did against their peers, not how they would perform today. For example, I don't think Elgin Baylor would put up 27 and 14 against today's defenses, but he was the dominant player of his era.

longstrangetrip wrote:1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Oscar
5. Jabbar
6. LeBron
7. Bird
8. Baylor
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Bryant

I had to cheat because I couldn't decide between Kobe and Hakeem. Of the current players, Durant probably makes the list by the time it's over. Duncan does not. The other candidates currently playing are too early in their careers to say. My list ranks players based on how they did against their peers, not how they would perform today. For example, I don't think Elgin Baylor would put up 27 and 14 against today's defenses, but he was the dominant player of his era.

LST, isn't Duncan the best power forward of all time? I think he has to be on there.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Oscar
5. Jabbar
6. LeBron
7. Bird
8. Baylor
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Bryant

I had to cheat because I couldn't decide between Kobe and Hakeem. Of the current players, Durant probably makes the list by the time it's over. Duncan does not. The other candidates currently playing are too early in their careers to say. My list ranks players based on how they did against their peers, not how they would perform today. For example, I don't think Elgin Baylor would put up 27 and 14 against today's defenses, but he was the dominant player of his era.

LST, isn't Duncan the best power forward of all time? I think he has to be on there.

Duncan probably is the best PF, and I certainly considered him. But I can't find anyone on my list to replace.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:You guys can't be serious about Simmons. I would lay him out if I ever had a chance to meet him. Just a horrible human being.

Just a question Cool do you listen to his podcasts at all. Or just his TV stuff, because IMO he comes off as a big douche on TV but I love his podcast, every Monday for the last two years I would sit down and listen to his 1 hour podcast.

Can't say I've listened to the podcasts. My dislike of him goes back to his treatment of David Kahn, believe it or not. That and his big market slant on everything. I just see him as a typical Boston reporter who has never known anything but privileged East Coast bias.

1. David Kahn deserved the insults... and there were many of them. He was not only arguably the worst GM of the modern era... he was smug and pretentious and woefully unqualified for the job. Oh, and he ate his own ear wax on live television.

2. Simmons has been a West Coast guy for the past decade. He's an LA Clippers season ticket holder...

crazysauce wrote:Cam you must not have watched them too much if you dont think Lebron played second fiddle to Wade for a few years, As the years went on it slowly rolled to Lebron, but Wade was the one with the higher usage percentage and also played much better than lebron the first few years. Am I a Lebron hater? Absolutely.
And you are crazy if you dont think James teaming up with two other stars didnt prevent us from seeing Lebron at his greatest. Its unfortunate really.

As far as if he didnt win a championship, in my eyes they are less significant when you have to leave your team to chase one. The greats dont need to chase. And Reggie Miller may not have won, but I respect the hell out of him for sticking it out. Especially when your an all time great, you shouldnt have to leave your team, you should be able to lead your team. He showed his true character when he left.

No. This is not accurate. Part of what made Miami so good after year #1 is that Wade stepped back so the Heat didn't have that Star 1a and Star 1b. That's been pretty clearly documented and stats support it.

As a guy who's more of an NBA fan... than just a Wolves fan... I dig the discussion in this thread.
A few comments:

1. Comparing superstars across eras is futile. Yes. Russell's era was inferior. We know that. And guys playing like they did then wouldn't be too successful against today's athletes. But what about context? What IF Russell had the same perks as modern athletes? Weight training. Diet. Guys to model his game after. Shoes with leather for chrissakes. Et al. Bottom line is that Russell won. Almost always. And he was a defensive force... and a decent offensive player.

2. I saw somebody rip Russell for shooting 44%. On its face, that sucks. But, again... eras. Cousy was a HOFer and MVP guy who shot 37.5% for his career. That 44% had Russell in the top 5 for shooting accuracy some seasons. And you also have to look at playoff performances. Russell upped his scoring/reb/assists in the playoffs. 16.1 ppg / 24.9 reb / 4.7 ast.

3. LeBron James is doing marvelous things with a team of cast-offs and never weres... and anything can happen in a 7-game series in the Finals. So I wouldn't even count out a title. But, beating Boston, Chicago and Atlanta this season has to be taken into context. None of them had a superstar player on it. And they didn't have a great supporting cast either. Atlanta has looked terrible. I'd give Cleveland all the credit or that... if it wasn't the trend through most of the playoffs already. That Wall injury may be the only reason they even made it this far.

The EAST is even worse than we thought.

4. All-time Top 10 list. They are insufferably silly/difficult... but they can also be fun and can create a ton of discussions. A lot of it comes down to what the criteria is... My list:

1. Jordan
2. Jabbar
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. James*
9. Shaq
10. Olajuwon

* James is moving up the list, almost daily. I see him ending anywhere between #5 and #2 when all is said and done. My prediction... #2.

[Note: I dislike LeBron James. I dislike Kobe Bryant too. But you gotta appreciate what each guy has done... and what LeBron continues to do. Heck, I disliked Jordan too. I root(ed) against all three almost every time they're on the court.]