Minnesota Sports Forum

FNG wrote:Matt Shoemaker has been lights out in St. Paul, and has made some curious comments which didn't sit well with Rocco. He said the Twins were trying to make him pitch in a way that didn't make him successful, and since he was sent down, he has reverted to his old style and found success. If this is true, this is a serous indictment of Wes Johnson...a guy many thought was a genius a couple years ago. I've pointed out how "unlucky" the Twins have been this season because all four of their offseason acquisitions are performing far worse than their career numbers, but Shoemaker's comments make me wonder if something else is going on here. Two questions.

1) What are the changes the Twins forced on Shoemaker?

2) Should Johnson be fired if he had a hand in all four pitcher performing so poorly this year?

They had him throw his splitter 20 percent more because statistically it's his best pitch

It could be because

Happ turned 38

Colome FIP last year was awfully we even talked about how he was luckiest pitcher in league last year. But his FIP was always high in his career.

Shoemaker was depth signing nothing more. I didn't know Wes Johnson was the one throwing the ball right down the middle.

I wouldn't say he's rolling in the minors. He made it past 5 innings once and has 16/8 BB/K ratio. Also I was at one of the games where he went 5 innings. He walked 4 and gave up 2 hits to Cleveland terrible triple a team he was lucky to not be out by the 4th.

If anything I think the organization put to much trust in Wes Johnson after the emergence of Duffey and Rogers etc.

Jester1534 wrote:

FNG wrote:Matt Shoemaker has been lights out in St. Paul, and has made some curious comments which didn't sit well with Rocco. He said the Twins were trying to make him pitch in a way that didn't make him successful, and since he was sent down, he has reverted to his old style and found success. If this is true, this is a serous indictment of Wes Johnson...a guy many thought was a genius a couple years ago. I've pointed out how "unlucky" the Twins have been this season because all four of their offseason acquisitions are performing far worse than their career numbers, but Shoemaker's comments make me wonder if something else is going on here. Two questions.

1) What are the changes the Twins forced on Shoemaker?

2) Should Johnson be fired if he had a hand in all four pitcher performing so poorly this year?

They had him throw his splitter 20 percent more because statistically it's his best pitch

It could be because

Happ turned 38

Colome FIP last year was awfully we even talked about how he was luckiest pitcher in league last year. But his FIP was always high in his career.

Shoemaker was depth signing nothing more. I didn't know Wes Johnson was the one throwing the ball right down the middle.

I wouldn't say he's rolling in the minors. He made it past 5 innings once and has 16/8 BB/K ratio. Also I was at one of the games where he went 5 innings. He walked 4 and gave up 2 hits to Cleveland terrible triple a team he was lucky to not be out by the 4th.

If anything I think the organization put to much trust in Wes Johnson after the emergence of Duffey and Rogers etc.

Thx for the info on the splitter. Odd that the Twins would be insisting on that since many pitching coaches I talk with think overuse of the splitter is more likely to lead to injury. Take a look at Shoe's stats in St. Paul. They use a lot of pitchers down there so it's difficult to get in more than 5 innings, but his stats are great in 5 games: 1.80 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, and .182 BAA.

Just spend a moment looking at the stats of our four pickup pitchers last year compared to this...it's stunning. I get that Wes can't throw the ball for them, but the pitching coach has to be given some credit for good performances and blame for bad performances, doesn't he? Otherwise what is he there for? If I hired and supervised 4 people and they all ending up performing much, and I mean MUCH, worse than how they performed in their previous job, I wouldn't be feeling too good about my job security. Maybe it was just bad luck that all four of the guys stunk this year after being comparatively effective much of their careers, but Shoemaker's comments make me wonder. I a good ol' boys club, you protect your pitching coach...god knows Kelly and Gardenhire did it for years. But good ol' boys clubs don't always make the best decisions, and I'm concerned that's what's going on here. I wouldn't be opposed to Rocco making a pitching coach change this offseason.

FNG wrote:

Jester1534 wrote:

FNG wrote:Matt Shoemaker has been lights out in St. Paul, and has made some curious comments which didn't sit well with Rocco. He said the Twins were trying to make him pitch in a way that didn't make him successful, and since he was sent down, he has reverted to his old style and found success. If this is true, this is a serous indictment of Wes Johnson...a guy many thought was a genius a couple years ago. I've pointed out how "unlucky" the Twins have been this season because all four of their offseason acquisitions are performing far worse than their career numbers, but Shoemaker's comments make me wonder if something else is going on here. Two questions.

1) What are the changes the Twins forced on Shoemaker?

2) Should Johnson be fired if he had a hand in all four pitcher performing so poorly this year?

They had him throw his splitter 20 percent more because statistically it's his best pitch

It could be because

Happ turned 38

Colome FIP last year was awfully we even talked about how he was luckiest pitcher in league last year. But his FIP was always high in his career.

Shoemaker was depth signing nothing more. I didn't know Wes Johnson was the one throwing the ball right down the middle.

I wouldn't say he's rolling in the minors. He made it past 5 innings once and has 16/8 BB/K ratio. Also I was at one of the games where he went 5 innings. He walked 4 and gave up 2 hits to Cleveland terrible triple a team he was lucky to not be out by the 4th.

If anything I think the organization put to much trust in Wes Johnson after the emergence of Duffey and Rogers etc.

Thx for the info on the splitter. Odd that the Twins would be insisting on that since many pitching coaches I talk with think overuse of the splitter is more likely to lead to injury. Take a look at Shoe's stats in St. Paul. They use a lot of pitchers down there so it's difficult to get in more than 5 innings, but his stats are great in 5 games: 1.80 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, and .182 BAA.

Just spend a moment looking at the stats of our four pickup pitchers last year compared to this...it's stunning. I get that Wes can't throw the ball for them, but the pitching coach has to be given some credit for good performances and blame for bad performances, doesn't he? Otherwise what is he there for? If I hired and supervised 4 people and they all ending up performing much, and I mean MUCH, worse than how they performed in their previous job, I wouldn't be feeling too good about my job security. Maybe it was just bad luck that all four of the guys stunk this year after being comparatively effective much of their careers, but Shoemaker's comments make me wonder. I a good ol' boys club, you protect your pitching coach...god knows Kelly and Gardenhire did it for years. But good ol' boys clubs don't always make the best decisions, and I'm concerned that's what's going on here. I wouldn't be opposed to Rocco making a pitching coach change this offseason.

I hate this line of thinking. What have you done for me lately thinking. Here are the pitchers Wes Johnson has improved since he's been here.

2020 Maeda almost won the cy young

2019 Pineda literal talks about him starting game 1 in the playoffs before he got popped for a weight loss pill.

Duffey 2019-2020 could argue was one best relievers in baseball. After changing his mechanics and ditching everything but his curve and fastball

Rogers 2020 all star

Odo 2019 all star till the injury bug but him

Berrios 2020 does he get no credit for His best year in his whole career

Does he get credit for them pitching well then or does he only get the credit when they shit the bed like Colome, happ and shoemaker?

Maybe shoemaker just had a good month in triple A? Why do you think he decided to go down to St Paul which no veteran ever does. It's because no one offered him a contract when they put him through waivers.

I would put money on Shoemaker not pitching in the mlb after this year.

jester1534 wrote:

FNG wrote:

Jester1534 wrote:

FNG wrote:Matt Shoemaker has been lights out in St. Paul, and has made some curious comments which didn't sit well with Rocco. He said the Twins were trying to make him pitch in a way that didn't make him successful, and since he was sent down, he has reverted to his old style and found success. If this is true, this is a serous indictment of Wes Johnson...a guy many thought was a genius a couple years ago. I've pointed out how "unlucky" the Twins have been this season because all four of their offseason acquisitions are performing far worse than their career numbers, but Shoemaker's comments make me wonder if something else is going on here. Two questions.

1) What are the changes the Twins forced on Shoemaker?

2) Should Johnson be fired if he had a hand in all four pitcher performing so poorly this year?

They had him throw his splitter 20 percent more because statistically it's his best pitch

It could be because

Happ turned 38

Colome FIP last year was awfully we even talked about how he was luckiest pitcher in league last year. But his FIP was always high in his career.

Shoemaker was depth signing nothing more. I didn't know Wes Johnson was the one throwing the ball right down the middle.

I wouldn't say he's rolling in the minors. He made it past 5 innings once and has 16/8 BB/K ratio. Also I was at one of the games where he went 5 innings. He walked 4 and gave up 2 hits to Cleveland terrible triple a team he was lucky to not be out by the 4th.

If anything I think the organization put to much trust in Wes Johnson after the emergence of Duffey and Rogers etc.

Thx for the info on the splitter. Odd that the Twins would be insisting on that since many pitching coaches I talk with think overuse of the splitter is more likely to lead to injury. Take a look at Shoe's stats in St. Paul. They use a lot of pitchers down there so it's difficult to get in more than 5 innings, but his stats are great in 5 games: 1.80 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, and .182 BAA.

Just spend a moment looking at the stats of our four pickup pitchers last year compared to this...it's stunning. I get that Wes can't throw the ball for them, but the pitching coach has to be given some credit for good performances and blame for bad performances, doesn't he? Otherwise what is he there for? If I hired and supervised 4 people and they all ending up performing much, and I mean MUCH, worse than how they performed in their previous job, I wouldn't be feeling too good about my job security. Maybe it was just bad luck that all four of the guys stunk this year after being comparatively effective much of their careers, but Shoemaker's comments make me wonder. I a good ol' boys club, you protect your pitching coach...god knows Kelly and Gardenhire did it for years. But good ol' boys clubs don't always make the best decisions, and I'm concerned that's what's going on here. I wouldn't be opposed to Rocco making a pitching coach change this offseason.

I hate this line of thinking. What have you done for me lately thinking. Here are the pitchers Wes Johnson has improved since he's been here.

2020 Maeda almost won the cy young

2019 Pineda literal talks about him starting game 1 in the playoffs before he got popped for a weight loss pill.

Duffey 2019-2020 could argue was one best relievers in baseball. After changing his mechanics and ditching everything but his curve and fastball

Rogers 2020 all star

Odo 2019 all star till the injury bug but him

Berrios 2020 does he get no credit for His best year in his whole career

Does he get credit for them pitching well then or does he only get the credit when they shit the bed like Colome, happ and shoemaker?

Maybe shoemaker just had a good month in triple A? Why do you think he decided to go down to St Paul which no veteran ever does. It's because no one offered him a contract when they put him through waivers.

I would put money on Shoemaker not pitching in the mlb after this year.

I think it's fair to say to give credit for the good and bad with Wes Johnson. I think I would give him the benefit of the doubt still. Does he get any credit for Rich Hill pitching well last year? What about Theilbar becoming a decent relief pitcher off the scrap pile? Williams Astudillo really knows how to pitch and that's all Wes Johnson. :) lol

monsterpile wrote:

jester1534 wrote:

FNG wrote:

Jester1534 wrote:

FNG wrote:Matt Shoemaker has been lights out in St. Paul, and has made some curious comments which didn't sit well with Rocco. He said the Twins were trying to make him pitch in a way that didn't make him successful, and since he was sent down, he has reverted to his old style and found success. If this is true, this is a serous indictment of Wes Johnson...a guy many thought was a genius a couple years ago. I've pointed out how "unlucky" the Twins have been this season because all four of their offseason acquisitions are performing far worse than their career numbers, but Shoemaker's comments make me wonder if something else is going on here. Two questions.

1) What are the changes the Twins forced on Shoemaker?

2) Should Johnson be fired if he had a hand in all four pitcher performing so poorly this year?

They had him throw his splitter 20 percent more because statistically it's his best pitch

It could be because

Happ turned 38

Colome FIP last year was awfully we even talked about how he was luckiest pitcher in league last year. But his FIP was always high in his career.

Shoemaker was depth signing nothing more. I didn't know Wes Johnson was the one throwing the ball right down the middle.

I wouldn't say he's rolling in the minors. He made it past 5 innings once and has 16/8 BB/K ratio. Also I was at one of the games where he went 5 innings. He walked 4 and gave up 2 hits to Cleveland terrible triple a team he was lucky to not be out by the 4th.

If anything I think the organization put to much trust in Wes Johnson after the emergence of Duffey and Rogers etc.

Thx for the info on the splitter. Odd that the Twins would be insisting on that since many pitching coaches I talk with think overuse of the splitter is more likely to lead to injury. Take a look at Shoe's stats in St. Paul. They use a lot of pitchers down there so it's difficult to get in more than 5 innings, but his stats are great in 5 games: 1.80 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, and .182 BAA.

Just spend a moment looking at the stats of our four pickup pitchers last year compared to this...it's stunning. I get that Wes can't throw the ball for them, but the pitching coach has to be given some credit for good performances and blame for bad performances, doesn't he? Otherwise what is he there for? If I hired and supervised 4 people and they all ending up performing much, and I mean MUCH, worse than how they performed in their previous job, I wouldn't be feeling too good about my job security. Maybe it was just bad luck that all four of the guys stunk this year after being comparatively effective much of their careers, but Shoemaker's comments make me wonder. I a good ol' boys club, you protect your pitching coach...god knows Kelly and Gardenhire did it for years. But good ol' boys clubs don't always make the best decisions, and I'm concerned that's what's going on here. I wouldn't be opposed to Rocco making a pitching coach change this offseason.

I hate this line of thinking. What have you done for me lately thinking. Here are the pitchers Wes Johnson has improved since he's been here.

2020 Maeda almost won the cy young

2019 Pineda literal talks about him starting game 1 in the playoffs before he got popped for a weight loss pill.

Duffey 2019-2020 could argue was one best relievers in baseball. After changing his mechanics and ditching everything but his curve and fastball

Rogers 2020 all star

Odo 2019 all star till the injury bug but him

Berrios 2020 does he get no credit for His best year in his whole career

Does he get credit for them pitching well then or does he only get the credit when they shit the bed like Colome, happ and shoemaker?

Maybe shoemaker just had a good month in triple A? Why do you think he decided to go down to St Paul which no veteran ever does. It's because no one offered him a contract when they put him through waivers.

I would put money on Shoemaker not pitching in the mlb after this year.

I think it's fair to say to give credit for the good and bad with Wes Johnson. I think I would give him the benefit of the doubt still. Does he get any credit for Rich Hill pitching well last year? What about Theilbar becoming a decent relief pitcher off the scrap pile? Williams Astudillo really knows how to pitch and that's all Wes Johnson. :) lol

Honestly I think the Twins had to much faith him that he could take anybody and turn them into salvageable. Look at Matt Wisler numbers while he was here he was essentially nobody.

jester1534 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

jester1534 wrote:

FNG wrote:

Jester1534 wrote:

FNG wrote:Matt Shoemaker has been lights out in St. Paul, and has made some curious comments which didn't sit well with Rocco. He said the Twins were trying to make him pitch in a way that didn't make him successful, and since he was sent down, he has reverted to his old style and found success. If this is true, this is a serous indictment of Wes Johnson...a guy many thought was a genius a couple years ago. I've pointed out how "unlucky" the Twins have been this season because all four of their offseason acquisitions are performing far worse than their career numbers, but Shoemaker's comments make me wonder if something else is going on here. Two questions.

1) What are the changes the Twins forced on Shoemaker?

2) Should Johnson be fired if he had a hand in all four pitcher performing so poorly this year?

They had him throw his splitter 20 percent more because statistically it's his best pitch

It could be because

Happ turned 38

Colome FIP last year was awfully we even talked about how he was luckiest pitcher in league last year. But his FIP was always high in his career.

Shoemaker was depth signing nothing more. I didn't know Wes Johnson was the one throwing the ball right down the middle.

I wouldn't say he's rolling in the minors. He made it past 5 innings once and has 16/8 BB/K ratio. Also I was at one of the games where he went 5 innings. He walked 4 and gave up 2 hits to Cleveland terrible triple a team he was lucky to not be out by the 4th.

If anything I think the organization put to much trust in Wes Johnson after the emergence of Duffey and Rogers etc.

Thx for the info on the splitter. Odd that the Twins would be insisting on that since many pitching coaches I talk with think overuse of the splitter is more likely to lead to injury. Take a look at Shoe's stats in St. Paul. They use a lot of pitchers down there so it's difficult to get in more than 5 innings, but his stats are great in 5 games: 1.80 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, and .182 BAA.

Just spend a moment looking at the stats of our four pickup pitchers last year compared to this...it's stunning. I get that Wes can't throw the ball for them, but the pitching coach has to be given some credit for good performances and blame for bad performances, doesn't he? Otherwise what is he there for? If I hired and supervised 4 people and they all ending up performing much, and I mean MUCH, worse than how they performed in their previous job, I wouldn't be feeling too good about my job security. Maybe it was just bad luck that all four of the guys stunk this year after being comparatively effective much of their careers, but Shoemaker's comments make me wonder. I a good ol' boys club, you protect your pitching coach...god knows Kelly and Gardenhire did it for years. But good ol' boys clubs don't always make the best decisions, and I'm concerned that's what's going on here. I wouldn't be opposed to Rocco making a pitching coach change this offseason.

I hate this line of thinking. What have you done for me lately thinking. Here are the pitchers Wes Johnson has improved since he's been here.

2020 Maeda almost won the cy young

2019 Pineda literal talks about him starting game 1 in the playoffs before he got popped for a weight loss pill.

Duffey 2019-2020 could argue was one best relievers in baseball. After changing his mechanics and ditching everything but his curve and fastball

Rogers 2020 all star

Odo 2019 all star till the injury bug but him

Berrios 2020 does he get no credit for His best year in his whole career

Does he get credit for them pitching well then or does he only get the credit when they shit the bed like Colome, happ and shoemaker?

Maybe shoemaker just had a good month in triple A? Why do you think he decided to go down to St Paul which no veteran ever does. It's because no one offered him a contract when they put him through waivers.

I would put money on Shoemaker not pitching in the mlb after this year.

I think it's fair to say to give credit for the good and bad with Wes Johnson. I think I would give him the benefit of the doubt still. Does he get any credit for Rich Hill pitching well last year? What about Theilbar becoming a decent relief pitcher off the scrap pile? Williams Astudillo really knows how to pitch and that's all Wes Johnson. :) lol

Honestly I think the Twins had to much faith him that he could take anybody and turn them into salvageable. Look at Matt Wisler numbers while he was here he was essentially nobody.

Twins let Shoemaker go so I am glad I was able to see him walk the Diamond in person before he left. They didn't release him because of the comments it's because they need the roster spots at AAA. Also I should mention if people didn't read the full comments by shoemaker about the Twins it's worth checking it out. He said they tried things to help him but it didn't work. He said he really liked the organization and it was still him throwing the ball and he went along with the changes. Maybe he was covering his butt with those comments but it seemed kinda genuine to me. The guy signed for just 2 million bucks. If the Twins would have had any options he would have likely been let go earlier but lots of other guys were hurt so they kept throwing him out there. Maybe a trip down to the Minors earlier and he could have righted himself for a playoff run...or run to some sort of respectable finish. Lol

No blame for rocco here? Damn that guy is the worst. He can't manage a damn game at all. His personal skills and all that the players are high on may be great but I hate his managing skills. Not a fan at all.

I just finished watching the highlights of today's game. Idk when MLB started putting music in the background of he highlights but it's kinda bizarre. It's just a loop of highlights or clips and random music in the background. Did they hire some YouTuber to do their videos? Actually that might be smart but seriously cut out the music it is not needed and it's weird.

Polonco keeps hitting. Maeda got a hit and scored a run to help his cause but he allowed 3 HRs.

I watched the extended highlights today and twice the announcers are like "they are going to test Rooker's arm" and the throws looked pretty sad. The 2nd one just weakly rolled into the infield. Is his arm that bad and if so why isn't he hitting a cut off man?

Good to see Charlie Barnes up in the Majors after seeing him battle through a minor league start a few days ago. Maybe he can be a worthwhile left handed 5th starter. #setthebarlow

monsterpile wrote:I watched the extended highlights today and twice the announcers are like "they are going to test Rooker's arm" and the throws looked pretty sad. The 2nd one just weakly rolled into the infield. Is his arm that bad and if so why isn't he hitting a cut off man?

Good to see Charlie Barnes up in the Majors after seeing him battle through a minor league start a few days ago. Maybe he can be a worthwhile left handed 5th starter. #setthebarlow

I wasn't aware of Rooker's throwing issues, Monster...that's unfortunate.

I haven't been watching much the past couple weeks, but I am checking the box scores. Arraez is red hot, Polanco has been terrific, and Garver looks like the Mitch of two years ago. It's been a terrible season, but I like the trades and actually feel kind of excited about next year. I think we're going to score a lot of runs...just have to figure out how to cobble together a starting rotation.