Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:You guys can't be serious about Simmons. I would lay him out if I ever had a chance to meet him. Just a horrible human being.

Just a question Cool do you listen to his podcasts at all. Or just his TV stuff, because IMO he comes off as a big douche on TV but I love his podcast, every Monday for the last two years I would sit down and listen to his 1 hour podcast.

Can't say I've listened to the podcasts. My dislike of him goes back to his treatment of David Kahn, believe it or not. That and his big market slant on everything. I just see him as a typical Boston reporter who has never known anything but privileged East Coast bias.

1. David Kahn deserved the insults... and there were many of them. He was not only arguably the worst GM of the modern era... he was smug and pretentious and woefully unqualified for the job. Oh, and he ate his own ear wax on live television.

2. Simmons has been a West Coast guy for the past decade. He's an LA Clippers season ticket holder...

longstrangetrip wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Oscar
5. Jabbar
6. LeBron
7. Bird
8. Baylor
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Bryant

I had to cheat because I couldn't decide between Kobe and Hakeem. Of the current players, Durant probably makes the list by the time it's over. Duncan does not. The other candidates currently playing are too early in their careers to say. My list ranks players based on how they did against their peers, not how they would perform today. For example, I don't think Elgin Baylor would put up 27 and 14 against today's defenses, but he was the dominant player of his era.

LST, isn't Duncan the best power forward of all time? I think he has to be on there.

Duncan probably is the best PF, and I certainly considered him. But I can't find anyone on my list to replace.

sjm34 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:You guys can't be serious about Simmons. I would lay him out if I ever had a chance to meet him. Just a horrible human being.

Just a question Cool do you listen to his podcasts at all. Or just his TV stuff, because IMO he comes off as a big douche on TV but I love his podcast, every Monday for the last two years I would sit down and listen to his 1 hour podcast.

Can't say I've listened to the podcasts. My dislike of him goes back to his treatment of David Kahn, believe it or not. That and his big market slant on everything. I just see him as a typical Boston reporter who has never known anything but privileged East Coast bias.

1. David Kahn deserved the insults... and there were many of them. He was not only arguably the worst GM of the modern era... he was smug and pretentious and woefully unqualified for the job. Oh, and he ate his own ear wax on live television.

2. Simmons has been a West Coast guy for the past decade. He's an LA Clippers season ticket holder...

Kahn was getting the insults from Simmons due to Bill being butt hurt. Simmons thought he should be given a chance at the Minny GM job, and when nobody took him seriously his rants on Kahn reached epic proportions. Kahn worked as an assistant GM under Donnie Walsh in Indy as well as having experience in the D league, so I am not sure how he was unqualified.

Billy King has well surpassed Kahn for the title of worst GM. Kahn took over a lousy ball club in salary cap hell, and turn them into a mediocre team that Flip took over. Not liking Kahn's personality or character should have little to do with whether he did his job or not. The fact that 3 of your 4 complaints fall into that category tells me that your feelings for him are clouding your judgement.

Simmons has been a diehard Celtics fan for his entire life, and continues to be one. He has season tickets to the clippers because he lives in LA. He would have season tickets to the wolves if he lived in Minny. He still bleeds Green.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:You guys can't be serious about Simmons. I would lay him out if I ever had a chance to meet him. Just a horrible human being.

Just a question Cool do you listen to his podcasts at all. Or just his TV stuff, because IMO he comes off as a big douche on TV but I love his podcast, every Monday for the last two years I would sit down and listen to his 1 hour podcast.

Can't say I've listened to the podcasts. My dislike of him goes back to his treatment of David Kahn, believe it or not. That and his big market slant on everything. I just see him as a typical Boston reporter who has never known anything but privileged East Coast bias.

1. David Kahn deserved the insults... and there were many of them. He was not only arguably the worst GM of the modern era... he was smug and pretentious and woefully unqualified for the job. Oh, and he ate his own ear wax on live television.

2. Simmons has been a West Coast guy for the past decade. He's an LA Clippers season ticket holder...

AbeVigodaLive wrote:As a guy who's more of an NBA fan... than just a Wolves fan... I dig the discussion in this thread.
A few comments:

1. Comparing superstars across eras is futile. Yes. Russell's era was inferior. We know that. And guys playing like they did then wouldn't be too successful against today's athletes. But what about context? What IF Russell had the same perks as modern athletes? Weight training. Diet. Guys to model his game after. Shoes with leather for chrissakes. Et al. Bottom line is that Russell won. Almost always. And he was a defensive force... and a decent offensive player.

2. I saw somebody rip Russell for shooting 44%. On its face, that sucks. But, again... eras. Cousy was a HOFer and MVP guy who shot 37.5% for his career. That 44% had Russell in the top 5 for shooting accuracy some seasons. And you also have to look at playoff performances. Russell upped his scoring/reb/assists in the playoffs. 16.1 ppg / 24.9 reb / 4.7 ast.

3. LeBron James is doing marvelous things with a team of cast-offs and never weres... and anything can happen in a 7-game series in the Finals. So I wouldn't even count out a title. But, beating Boston, Chicago and Atlanta this season has to be taken into context. None of them had a superstar player on it. And they didn't have a great supporting cast either. Atlanta has looked terrible. I'd give Cleveland all the credit or that... if it wasn't the trend through most of the playoffs already. That Wall injury may be the only reason they even made it this far.

The EAST is even worse than we thought.

4. All-time Top 10 list. They are insufferably silly/difficult... but they can also be fun and can create a ton of discussions. A lot of it comes down to what the criteria is... My list:

1. Jordan
2. Jabbar
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. James*
9. Shaq
10. Olajuwon

* James is moving up the list, almost daily. I see him ending anywhere between #5 and #2 when all is said and done. My prediction... #2.

[Note: I dislike LeBron James. I dislike Kobe Bryant too. But you gotta appreciate what each guy has done... and what LeBron continues to do. Heck, I disliked Jordan too. I root(ed) against all three almost every time they're on the court.]

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Oscar
5. Jabbar
6. LeBron
7. Bird
8. Baylor
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Bryant

I had to cheat because I couldn't decide between Kobe and Hakeem. Of the current players, Durant probably makes the list by the time it's over. Duncan does not. The other candidates currently playing are too early in their careers to say. My list ranks players based on how they did against their peers, not how they would perform today. For example, I don't think Elgin Baylor would put up 27 and 14 against today's defenses, but he was the dominant player of his era.

LST, isn't Duncan the best power forward of all time? I think he has to be on there.

Duncan probably is the best PF, and I certainly considered him. But I can't find anyone on my list to replace.

I'd start with Elgin Baylor. That one leaps out at me. And I'd look at Oscar after that. Then, Bryant, Shaq and Hakeem.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:As a guy who's more of an NBA fan... than just a Wolves fan... I dig the discussion in this thread.
A few comments:

1. Comparing superstars across eras is futile. Yes. Russell's era was inferior. We know that. And guys playing like they did then wouldn't be too successful against today's athletes. But what about context? What IF Russell had the same perks as modern athletes? Weight training. Diet. Guys to model his game after. Shoes with leather for chrissakes. Et al. Bottom line is that Russell won. Almost always. And he was a defensive force... and a decent offensive player.

2. I saw somebody rip Russell for shooting 44%. On its face, that sucks. But, again... eras. Cousy was a HOFer and MVP guy who shot 37.5% for his career. That 44% had Russell in the top 5 for shooting accuracy some seasons. And you also have to look at playoff performances. Russell upped his scoring/reb/assists in the playoffs. 16.1 ppg / 24.9 reb / 4.7 ast.

3. LeBron James is doing marvelous things with a team of cast-offs and never weres... and anything can happen in a 7-game series in the Finals. So I wouldn't even count out a title. But, beating Boston, Chicago and Atlanta this season has to be taken into context. None of them had a superstar player on it. And they didn't have a great supporting cast either. Atlanta has looked terrible. I'd give Cleveland all the credit or that... if it wasn't the trend through most of the playoffs already. That Wall injury may be the only reason they even made it this far.

The EAST is even worse than we thought.

4. All-time Top 10 list. They are insufferably silly/difficult... but they can also be fun and can create a ton of discussions. A lot of it comes down to what the criteria is... My list:

1. Jordan
2. Jabbar
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. James*
9. Shaq
10. Olajuwon

* James is moving up the list, almost daily. I see him ending anywhere between #5 and #2 when all is said and done. My prediction... #2.

[Note: I dislike LeBron James. I dislike Kobe Bryant too. But you gotta appreciate what each guy has done... and what LeBron continues to do. Heck, I disliked Jordan too. I root(ed) against all three almost every time they're on the court.]

Shaq over Kobe? And you have Russell too high. Other than that, not bad.

longstrangetrip wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Oscar
5. Jabbar
6. LeBron
7. Bird
8. Baylor
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem/Bryant

I had to cheat because I couldn't decide between Kobe and Hakeem. Of the current players, Durant probably makes the list by the time it's over. Duncan does not. The other candidates currently playing are too early in their careers to say. My list ranks players based on how they did against their peers, not how they would perform today. For example, I don't think Elgin Baylor would put up 27 and 14 against today's defenses, but he was the dominant player of his era.

LST, isn't Duncan the best power forward of all time? I think he has to be on there.

Duncan probably is the best PF, and I certainly considered him. But I can't find anyone on my list to replace.

I'd start with Elgin Baylor. That one leaps out at me. And I'd look at Oscar after that. Then, Bryant, Shaq and Hakeem.

Baylor is my favorite player of all time, so there's no way I can put Duncan above him, He was the definition of poetry on the court...smooth and athletic, and the first wing to play above the rim, even though he was only 6-5. And his stats are extraordinary...27.4. 13.5 and 4.3 for his career, without the benefit of the 3-point shot. And to complete the package, he was an incredible defender. Truly the entire package, and worthy of a top 5 spot on anyone's list. And I'll never forget that when the Lakers traveled to St. Louis to play the Hawks, Baylor had to stay in a separate hotel that allowed black guests.

Robertson averaged 25.7. 7.5 and 9.5 for his career, usually playing with a supporting cast that was not very good. In his second season, he AVERAGED a triple double...30.8, 12.5 and 11.4! And he shot almost 49% in an era when shooting percentages were not as good as today. I'll also add that Abdul Jabbar rates Jordan, James and Robertson as the three greatest players of all time, and he puts Oscar at the top of that trio. Nope, I can't put Duncan ahead of him either.

I have to agree with you, though, that Duncan is right up there with Hakeem, Kobe and Shaq. I think I need 12 players in my best players list, because Duncan would be #12.