Minnesota Sports Forum

FNG wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

FNG wrote:Anybody following the year former Wolf Wayne Ellington is having? He's earned his way into the Pistons' starting lineup, and is averaging 20PPG on 53% 3-point shooting (6.7 attempts per game). I had forgotten that he made almost 40% of his threes his first two seasons with the Wolves. I don't miss him because it appears his defense is still as DLO-like as ever, but it's still fun to watch his results this year.

Wow, didn't know that. Good for him. I don't recall his defense being that bad.

I think a guy like Nowell could easily carve out a career as a solid backup SG like Ellington has and may be even better.

I remember Wayne's defense as being often cringeworthy, Q. Nowell on the other hand appears to be a solid defender. His inability to find his way onto the court tells me that he is a complete flop in practices, or that Ryan is a horrible judge of talent, because he consistently impresses in his limited minutes (granted, many of his minutes are garbage time, but he seems equally proficient in his real minutes). Not sure which one it is.

I think Nowell is simply a victim of a logjam and pecking order at SG:

#1 - Beasley is clearly our best SG, so he deserves the starting role.
#2 - Culver (SG/SF). One of our best defenders, but more importantly, a Rosas lottery pick from last season who is going to get extra rope before taking out of the rotation.
#3 - Edwards (SG/SF). Our #1 pick from this last season. No way does he get eliminated from the rotation.
#4 - Layman (SF) - Saunders keeps dabbling with Layman - a vet - at SF, which pushes Edwards over to SG. This means less minutes for Nowell.

As I've been saying all along, after you get past KAT, DLO, and Beasley, it is really hard to differentiate the rest of the roster based purely on team impact THIS year. Take salary, draft status, and years of experience out of the equation and who is our 4th best player? Naz? Vanderbilt? McLaughlin? It could be Nowell even!

Q -- I remember being part of a small group of season ticket holders at a gathering with Kevin McHale. We were discussing why some teams that seem to have a lot of talent don't do very well. I can't remember specifically what teams we were talking about in particular. But I do remember McHale saying that while the overall talent is important, in his words "it's not the five best players, it's the five players who play best together.

Nevertheless, I'll take a crack at identifying what I consider to be our five best players. I think KAT and Edwards are our two most talented players in that order, but I still don't consider Edwards (as a 19-year old rookie with 20 games of NBA experience) one of our five best players. Here's my list of what I consider the five best players on the Wolves roster, in descending order from the best:

1. KAT
2. Beasley
3. DLO
4. JMac
5. Nowell

I know we don't have much information for evaluating Nowell, so it's more of a hunch based on his limited NBA minutes, G-League play and college play (both stats and film). He just looks like someone who knows how to play. And his shooting (both mid-range and 3-point) has been consistently very good at every level where he's played significant consistent minutes.

You can see the problem. Even if I'm right about these as the five best, it wouldn't make sense to start them together. I could substitute Ricky, Okogie, Culver or Edwards and it still wouldn't make sense. It just underscores the nonsensical construction of the Wolves roster. It's hard to translate this roster into a list of the five who would play best together. But here's my guess:

1. JMac. - Best penetrator who keeps the ball moving and disrupts the opposing defense
2. Beasley - Best perimeter shooter who also excels in transition, scores in the paint and rebounds
3. Edwards - Can put up lots of points, put pressure on defense, good passer & great defensive potential
4.Vando - High energy defender and rebounder who can also get put-backs; nice complement to KAT
5.KAT

The reason i didn't include DLO is that he he has sticky fingers and doesn't keep the ball movement and oven our overall level of talent, we need lots of ball and player movement to have a chance of competing. He's also not a good fit for a more fast-paced, full court game. JMac, Beasley and Edwards all fit better for a more up-tempo style with lots of ball movement. And while Edwards has yet to prove himself defensively, we already know that DLO isn't good defensively. I also like JMac's pesky Barea type defense. I see Nowell, Reid and McDaniels as part of the rotation off the bench. Those are the guys I'd role with. Meanwhile, I'd look to move DLO and either Culver or Okogie if I could get decent value for them. Otherwise, I'd go with DLO instead of JMac as our starting PG and try to move Ricky. ````

How about LaMello Ball last night against the Bucks? 27 points, 9 assists, 5 rebounds, 4 steals and only 1 turnover. He was 8-10 from the field and 9-9 from the free-throw line. And again, that was against one of the best teams in the League.

LaMello has had ups and downs so far this season. But it's becoming increasingly clear the Mike Schmitz was right to have him #1 on his draft board. He's the real deal. If I reordered my draft board now about 20 games into the season, I'd have Ball at #1 followed by Wiseman at #2. I'd have Edwards at #3, but Haliburton is close behind and might overtake him. Quickley is rising up fast.

lipoli390 wrote:How about LaMello Ball last night against the Bucks? 27 points, 9 assists, 5 rebounds, 4 steals and only 1 turnover. He was 8-10 from the field and 9-9 from the free-throw line. And again, that was against one of the best teams in the League.

LaMello has had ups and downs so far this season. But it's becoming increasingly clear the Mike Schmitz was right to have him #1 on his draft board. He's the real deal. If I reordered my draft board now about 20 games into the season, I'd have Ball at #1 followed by Wiseman at #2. I'd have Edwards at #3, but Haliburton is close behind and might overtake him. Quickley is rising up fast.

Yeah, huge game by the surprising Ball last night. He's been up and down though, so I still have Haliburton #1. My top 5 are the same as yours, but slightly different ordered:

1) Haliburton
2) Ball
3) Quickley
4) Wiseman
5) Edwards

Of the 4 behind Haliburton, I would pick either Ball or Edwards as most likely to pick it up and end up #1.

FNG wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:How about LaMello Ball last night against the Bucks? 27 points, 9 assists, 5 rebounds, 4 steals and only 1 turnover. He was 8-10 from the field and 9-9 from the free-throw line. And again, that was against one of the best teams in the League.

LaMello has had ups and downs so far this season. But it's becoming increasingly clear the Mike Schmitz was right to have him #1 on his draft board. He's the real deal. If I reordered my draft board now about 20 games into the season, I'd have Ball at #1 followed by Wiseman at #2. I'd have Edwards at #3, but Haliburton is close behind and might overtake him. Quickley is rising up fast.

Yeah, huge game by the surprising Ball last night. He's been up and down though, so I still have Haliburton #1. My top 5 are the same as yours, but slightly different ordered:

1) Haliburton
2) Ball
3) Quickley
4) Wiseman
5) Edwards

Of the 4 behind Haliburton, I would pick either Ball or Edwards as most likely to pick it up and end up #1.

That's pretty close to where I'm at, FNG. I have Ball ahead of Haliburton because Ball has had more of what I'd call elite performances, even though I think Haliburton has been more consistent. I'm still giving Wiseman points for potential, which is why I have him ahead of Quickley, but based I could see putting Quickley ahead of him as you have.

lipoli390 wrote:

FNG wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:How about LaMello Ball last night against the Bucks? 27 points, 9 assists, 5 rebounds, 4 steals and only 1 turnover. He was 8-10 from the field and 9-9 from the free-throw line. And again, that was against one of the best teams in the League.

LaMello has had ups and downs so far this season. But it's becoming increasingly clear the Mike Schmitz was right to have him #1 on his draft board. He's the real deal. If I reordered my draft board now about 20 games into the season, I'd have Ball at #1 followed by Wiseman at #2. I'd have Edwards at #3, but Haliburton is close behind and might overtake him. Quickley is rising up fast.

Yeah, huge game by the surprising Ball last night. He's been up and down though, so I still have Haliburton #1. My top 5 are the same as yours, but slightly different ordered:

1) Haliburton
2) Ball
3) Quickley
4) Wiseman
5) Edwards

Of the 4 behind Haliburton, I would pick either Ball or Edwards as most likely to pick it up and end up #1.

That's pretty close to where I'm at, FNG. I have Ball ahead of Haliburton because Ball has had more of what I'd call elite performances, even though I think Haliburton has been more consistent. I'm still giving Wiseman points for potential, which is why I have him ahead of Quickley, but based I could see putting Quickley ahead of him as you have.

No question that Ball and Quickley have been big surprises. I would not have been interested in either one of them, but they both have shown potential superstar potential. Haliburton had a very high floor for me...he looked so NBA ready in college...so I'm not surprised he hit the ground running. Wiseman was an unknown for me because there just wasn't any video of him playing against anyone even close to NBA quality, but athletic 7 footers will always have a reasonable high floor in my opinion, so I'm not surprised that he has been okay in his first season.

Then there's Ball and Edwards. both of whom I saw as swing for the fences picks. Both have the skill to be potential MVP's (I don't think the other three do), but also significant risk areas that could limit their potential. So far Ball has done a much better job of minimizing those risks than Edwards has. I'm still excited to see what Ant can do when he has 2 max offensive players healthy and on the court drawing attention away from him, but right now he is far behind my top 3.

Here are some other performances from last night by players the Wolves could have on their roster:

Jimmy Butler: 30 points, 8 assists, 7 rebounds. Miami was struggling with Jimmy out. He finally returned last night and led his team to a 1-point win. That's what he does. We all remember the difference it made when Jimmy was here and went down with an injury last in the season. We went from bing on track for a 4th or 5th seed to barely being an 8th seed. He's a winner. I wasn't in favor of the deal that brought him here, but once done the focus should have been on keeping him instead of giving Wiggins a max deal.

LaVine had 26 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists and 2 steals. And yes, he was a +6. Meanwhile Markkanen had 31 points and 6 rebounds, on 12-18 shooting from the floor. These are two guys who would be on the Wolves if not for the Jimmy Butler trade. As it turns out, we don't have Butler, LaVine or Markkenan. Meanwhile, Coby White had 20 highly efficient points and 6 assists. I wasn't a fan or Coby coming out of college, but it's noteworthy that the Wolves could have drafted him instead of Culver.

Christian Wood had 27 points and 9 rebounds while hitting 11 of his 13 FG attempts and 3 of his 4 three-point attempts. Given the fact that Detroit let him walk, it's highly likely the Wolves could have acquired in a trade without giving up a lot.

Bobby Portis had 11 points, 6 rebounds and 2 assists in 20 minutes last night. He hit all 5 of his shot attempts, including his 1 three-point attempt. Of course, the Wolves could have signed him instead of Juancho as a free agent - probably for less money.

There you have it. I know it's only one night, but....

Speaking of the Bucks, what a disappointment so far. They upgraded their roster in the offseason but somehow the whole is less than the sum of parts. Holiday is a terrific player, and Middleton is shooting the hek out of the ball. (Cam you were right about him) The past couple of years the Bucks would tend to blow teams out early and coast to victories. But now the league has figured out a way to slow Giannis, and I think Bud has done a poor job of adapting. They typically still start well, but even when they do teams seem to be able to hang around better. The Bucks get caught toward the end of the third quarter, and then they simply can't execute on offense down the stretch. Bud let's Giannis and Lopez shoot too many 3's, and the inevitable misses create momentum for the opponent. Then Giannis can't make his free throws and they end up using. They can't keep doing the same things and expect different results. They need to change the way they play and a lot of it involves Giannis. He needs to play a lot more with his back to the basket where he can still dominate, and stop jacking up low percentage shots. He's shooting 28% from 3, and 59% at the line. It just isn't going to work. Bud is going to start getting some heat if he can't adapt better.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Speaking of the Bucks, what a disappointment so far. They upgraded their roster in the offseason but somehow the whole is less than the sum of parts. Holiday is a terrific player, and Middleton is shooting the hek out of the ball. (Cam you were right about him) The past couple of years the Bucks would tend to blow teams out early and coast to victories. But now the league has figured out a way to slow Giannis, and I think Bud has done a poor job of adapting. They typically still start well, but even when they do teams seem to be able to hang around better. The Bucks get caught toward the end of the third quarter, and then they simply can't execute on offense down the stretch. Bud let's Giannis and Lopez shoot too many 3's, and the inevitable misses create momentum for the opponent. Then Giannis can't make his free throws and they end up using. They can't keep doing the same things and expect different results. They need to change the way they play and a lot of it involves Giannis. He needs to play a lot more with his back to the basket where he can still dominate, and stop jacking up low percentage shots. He's shooting 28% from 3, and 59% at the line. It just isn't going to work. Bud is going to start getting some heat if he can't adapt better.

I was thinking the same thing, Cool. The Bucks this season are a good example of McHale's point about the five who play best together, not the best five. I thought adding Holiday was going to really elevate that team to the point where it would be even better than last season. But that's not the case so far and I think you've identified some of the key reasons why. It's really tough when your best player is a poor free-throw shooter and even worse when he's also a poor 3-point shooter. I'm a huge Giannis fan, but it's hard for any coach to cover those two weaknesses in the team's best player. As you noted, other teams appear to have adjusted and are exploiting those weaknesses, especially in the second half of games.

The Bucks are #1 in Offensive Rating and #17 in defense (they were #1 in defense last year). Seems like they aren't getting enough stops.