Minnesota Sports Forum

bleedspeed177 wrote:Would anyone else here trade Shabazz and Dieng for Sabonis? I would love to come out of this draft wtih Hield and Sabonis.

bleedspeed177 wrote:LST - I want him to start. I those for to bond and when they are up for contracts not want to leave. Only spot we should be looking for a starter that can play next to Towns up front. Other than that I think we need guys that okay being depth.

Mikkeman wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:Wow. This went off the rails fast. Forget the $20m per year for a second. How do we get "younger better Ben Wallace who is totally going to keep getting better" to start ahead Jonas Friggin' Valanciunas? And can we please have a bunch of posts about how the Raptors are run by a bunch of idiots who for some reason hired Dwayne Casey instead of Kurt Rambis? And maybe a few about how they totally had Johnny Flynn rated higher than Derozan? Thanking you in advance. And who knows? Maybe TOR signs Biyombo and MIN can "settle" for Valanciunas in a salary dump.

I never compared Wallace's PER to Biyomo's. I simply said that Biyombo's PER SPLIT (-.9) is very average. And I stand by that comment.

If a basketball team is good, it is because they played good basketball. You can play good basketball by either doing good things, or not letting your opponent do good things. You can't do neither of those things and still be good. Giving lots of money to a guy who really hasn't because you think he will is not bright. And simply saying that a move is not the least brightest doesn't then make it bright.

Can you win a champioship with Biyombo as your 3rd best post? Well, since TOR is 6 games away, I am going to say yes. Can you win with him as a starter? If you have 4 absolute studs surrounding him, I'm sure you can. But if you are paying him $20m, and you have to pay the others $25m, thats a $120m starting lineup for a team that doesn't even draw as well as The Wild. Is that really going to happen?

If you think that Casey would have to be idiot for not starting Biyombo ahead of Valenciunas if Biyombo is better, I guess you think also that Kerr was idiot since he was planning to start Lee ahead of Draymond Green until Lee was injured. Sometimes even good coaches find the best lineup somehow accidentally. I'm not necessarily saying that Biyombo is right now better than Valanciunas, but he is better fit for Toronto team and very important piece for them If they won't sign him, they will lose him for nothing. Since Valanciunas is also really good young center with pretty decent contract, they could get a lot in return if they would trade him. So I think Biyombo + what they would get in return if they would trade Valanciunas would be definitely better than having just Valanciunas.

If you don't believe that Biyombo is better fit than Valanciunas, go and check net rating for each player. Biyombo had slightly higher net rating over whole season (3.8 vs 3.0) but since he was new player in team it took a while to learn to play with his new teammates. So if check net rating from second half of the season, gap between Biyombo and Valanciunas is huge. (8.2 vs -0.4).

You didn't compare Wallace's PER to Biyombo but you acted like Biymbo's stat line that is pretty close to Wallace's line is just fluke. I understood that you value Ben Wallace a lot but not Biyombo and your reasoning for not valuing Biyombo is his PER splits. My comment was that if you use just PER splits for valuing players, also Ben Wallace would have looked pretty bad. So do you actually think that Ben Wallace too was average? PER in general favors high usage players and thus defensive studs like Wallace or Biyombo are vastly undervalued.

Toronto has done pretty well in post season in games that Valanciunas missed. I would argue that winning two games against Cleveland without Valanciunas means that they are legit contender even without him. I also think that Biyombo has been by far third most important player in those games after Lowty and DeRozan. So I would say that team with Biyombo as their third best player can be contender already now and since he is just 23 years old and has improved every season so far, it is very probable that he is even better in future.

TRKO wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:Would anyone else here trade Shabazz and Dieng for Sabonis? I would love to come out of this draft wtih Hield and Sabonis.

No. I'm not looking to trade any of our young talent for an unproven late lottery guy. I like Sabonis as much as anybody here, but there is no guarantee he will be any better than Dieng.

khans2k5 wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:Wow. This went off the rails fast. Forget the $20m per year for a second. How do we get "younger better Ben Wallace who is totally going to keep getting better" to start ahead Jonas Friggin' Valanciunas? And can we please have a bunch of posts about how the Raptors are run by a bunch of idiots who for some reason hired Dwayne Casey instead of Kurt Rambis? And maybe a few about how they totally had Johnny Flynn rated higher than Derozan? Thanking you in advance. And who knows? Maybe TOR signs Biyombo and MIN can "settle" for Valanciunas in a salary dump.

I never compared Wallace's PER to Biyomo's. I simply said that Biyombo's PER SPLIT (-.9) is very average. And I stand by that comment.

If a basketball team is good, it is because they played good basketball. You can play good basketball by either doing good things, or not letting your opponent do good things. You can't do neither of those things and still be good. Giving lots of money to a guy who really hasn't because you think he will is not bright. And simply saying that a move is not the least brightest doesn't then make it bright.

Can you win a champioship with Biyombo as your 3rd best post? Well, since TOR is 6 games away, I am going to say yes. Can you win with him as a starter? If you have 4 absolute studs surrounding him, I'm sure you can. But if you are paying him $20m, and you have to pay the others $25m, thats a $120m starting lineup for a team that doesn't even draw as well as The Wild. Is that really going to happen?

If you think that Casey would have to be idiot for not starting Biyombo ahead of Valenciunas if Biyombo is better, I guess you think also that Kerr was idiot since he was planning to start Lee ahead of Draymond Green until Lee was injured. Sometimes even good coaches find the best lineup somehow accidentally. I'm not necessarily saying that Biyombo is right now better than Valanciunas, but he is better fit for Toronto team and very important piece for them If they won't sign him, they will lose him for nothing. Since Valanciunas is also really good young center with pretty decent contract, they could get a lot in return if they would trade him. So I think Biyombo + what they would get in return if they would trade Valanciunas would be definitely better than having just Valanciunas.

If you don't believe that Biyombo is better fit than Valanciunas, go and check net rating for each player. Biyombo had slightly higher net rating over whole season (3.8 vs 3.0) but since he was new player in team it took a while to learn to play with his new teammates. So if check net rating from second half of the season, gap between Biyombo and Valanciunas is huge. (8.2 vs -0.4).

You didn't compare Wallace's PER to Biyombo but you acted like Biymbo's stat line that is pretty close to Wallace's line is just fluke. I understood that you value Ben Wallace a lot but not Biyombo and your reasoning for not valuing Biyombo is his PER splits. My comment was that if you use just PER splits for valuing players, also Ben Wallace would have looked pretty bad. So do you actually think that Ben Wallace too was average? PER in general favors high usage players and thus defensive studs like Wallace or Biyombo are vastly undervalued.

Toronto has done pretty well in post season in games that Valanciunas missed. I would argue that winning two games against Cleveland without Valanciunas means that they are legit contender even without him. I also think that Biyombo has been by far third most important player in those games after Lowty and DeRozan. So I would say that team with Biyombo as their third best player can be contender already now and since he is just 23 years old and has improved every season so far, it is very probable that he is even better in future.

This makes me wonder if Jonas would be available and what it would take to get him. I think he'd be a great fit next to Towns as a big body who can rebound and handle the opposing C in the post. He's signed for 4 years after this one at 16 per which is right around what people think Biyombo will get anyway.

monsterpile wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:Wow. This went off the rails fast. Forget the $20m per year for a second. How do we get "younger better Ben Wallace who is totally going to keep getting better" to start ahead Jonas Friggin' Valanciunas? And can we please have a bunch of posts about how the Raptors are run by a bunch of idiots who for some reason hired Dwayne Casey instead of Kurt Rambis? And maybe a few about how they totally had Johnny Flynn rated higher than Derozan? Thanking you in advance. And who knows? Maybe TOR signs Biyombo and MIN can "settle" for Valanciunas in a salary dump.

I never compared Wallace's PER to Biyomo's. I simply said that Biyombo's PER SPLIT (-.9) is very average. And I stand by that comment.

If a basketball team is good, it is because they played good basketball. You can play good basketball by either doing good things, or not letting your opponent do good things. You can't do neither of those things and still be good. Giving lots of money to a guy who really hasn't because you think he will is not bright. And simply saying that a move is not the least brightest doesn't then make it bright.

Can you win a champioship with Biyombo as your 3rd best post? Well, since TOR is 6 games away, I am going to say yes. Can you win with him as a starter? If you have 4 absolute studs surrounding him, I'm sure you can. But if you are paying him $20m, and you have to pay the others $25m, thats a $120m starting lineup for a team that doesn't even draw as well as The Wild. Is that really going to happen?

If you think that Casey would have to be idiot for not starting Biyombo ahead of Valenciunas if Biyombo is better, I guess you think also that Kerr was idiot since he was planning to start Lee ahead of Draymond Green until Lee was injured. Sometimes even good coaches find the best lineup somehow accidentally. I'm not necessarily saying that Biyombo is right now better than Valanciunas, but he is better fit for Toronto team and very important piece for them If they won't sign him, they will lose him for nothing. Since Valanciunas is also really good young center with pretty decent contract, they could get a lot in return if they would trade him. So I think Biyombo + what they would get in return if they would trade Valanciunas would be definitely better than having just Valanciunas.

If you don't believe that Biyombo is better fit than Valanciunas, go and check net rating for each player. Biyombo had slightly higher net rating over whole season (3.8 vs 3.0) but since he was new player in team it took a while to learn to play with his new teammates. So if check net rating from second half of the season, gap between Biyombo and Valanciunas is huge. (8.2 vs -0.4).

You didn't compare Wallace's PER to Biyombo but you acted like Biymbo's stat line that is pretty close to Wallace's line is just fluke. I understood that you value Ben Wallace a lot but not Biyombo and your reasoning for not valuing Biyombo is his PER splits. My comment was that if you use just PER splits for valuing players, also Ben Wallace would have looked pretty bad. So do you actually think that Ben Wallace too was average? PER in general favors high usage players and thus defensive studs like Wallace or Biyombo are vastly undervalued.

Toronto has done pretty well in post season in games that Valanciunas missed. I would argue that winning two games against Cleveland without Valanciunas means that they are legit contender even without him. I also think that Biyombo has been by far third most important player in those games after Lowty and DeRozan. So I would say that team with Biyombo as their third best player can be contender already now and since he is just 23 years old and has improved every season so far, it is very probable that he is even better in future.

This makes me wonder if Jonas would be available and what it would take to get him. I think he'd be a great fit next to Towns as a big body who can rebound and handle the opposing C in the post. He's signed for 4 years after this one at 16 per which is right around what people think Biyombo will get anyway.

I think it would take more than I would want to give up in terms of assts to get him as he is a nice young player (center) basically signed to what is going to look like a pretty reasonable contract after his summer.