Minnesota Sports Forum

Mikkeman wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

Why you would want Noah even tough his PER splits are pretty awful (-3.3) and it seems that his game is diminishing rapidly. Last year he still had -0.5 PER splits and year before that +5.9. It is not probable that he would be able to turn that trend. In top of that he is injury prone.

I would want him at the propper price, and I would chose Gasol over him.

"Prone" is a strong word. He has played 64 or more games in 7 of 9 seasons. Last year was a bad year, no argument. But he has a track record, so why would he not be able to "turn that trend"?

And why would you call me out and not the person who originally posted it? Did you agree until you found out I did?

Noah has also missed at least 15 games in 5 of 9 seasons. It is also very rare that big men that are over 30 year old that have had pretty bad injury history would suddenly stay healthy when they get even older. It is also rare that players who have had consecutive seasons with rapidly diminishing stats would bounce strongly back especially if player is already over 30 years old.

Cam nailed it, I responded to your post because you are using PER splits like they would be final truth whenever they support your argument but forgot them totally in case using it would make your proposal look bad.

I don't like PER splits at least as a single stat to determine players value because it is really flawed stat like almost any advanced stat if it is not looked really carefully. For example Bazz looks quite OK in PER split because he has high usage and thus quite high PER and more importantly because he guards every single time the worst offensive wing on the floor. So because he is typically matched against non-scoring wings it looks like he would be OK in defense. Wiggins for example looks from PER split point of view better as shooting guard than as small forward but real reason for numbers is that when he plays with Zach he typically guards opponents best wing but when he played with Prince, he often was guarding weaker wing so that he could save energy for offense. Also in general average PER for shooting guards is lower than average PER for small forwards, so even if he would be guarding player in corresponding position and keeping them in their average numbers, it would look like he did better job as shooting guard.

Another problem with looking PER split from defense point of view is that since it considers only the PER of the guy you are supposed to guard, it won't give any credit for good team defense. For example Paul Gasol plays horrible pick and roll defense that leaves guard difficult position to recover from pick. But since he stays with his man whom doesn't score, it is not visible in defensive PER. Same was true for Pek.

BTW. I would also want Wolves team to sign Paul Gasol but only if NBA season would be 8 games long and our team name would be Spain.

monsterpile wrote:If prefer to sign some younger vet players to grow with the team but I think this franchise has to go after a guy that's above just solid rotation guy they need to at least chase someone in the Jeremy Lin range of dynamic impact.

bleedspeed177 wrote:They might be desperate to unload Monroe.

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:Would anyone else here trade Shabazz and Dieng for Sabonis? I would love to come out of this draft wtih Hield and Sabonis.

All due respect, I really like you as a poster, but that is capital C, capital R, capital A, capital . . . "f" it, CRAZY!!!! Dieng is a proven big at this point who can play both the 4 and the 5, plays pretty well on both sides of the ball, has a versatile offensive game inside and out, plays hard, is one of the best mid-range and FT shooters in the entire league (look it up), and works great with our franchise player.

Sabonis might look like he's slightly undervalued in a weak draft, but that doesn't all of a sudden make him a guaranteed NBA starter or even a borderline starter on a good team, which Dieng would be (and will be soon).

And to throw in Bazz is just giving away more for . . . what, exactly? A potential lunch bucket 10th or 11th man? If he pans out? Count me out.

bleedspeed177 wrote:Not my best moment that is for sure. Thought was clear out guys we might not want to pay big $'s and get a cheap rookie. If we want we could through money after Dieng as a RFA a year later.

khans2k5 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:Wow. This went off the rails fast. Forget the $20m per year for a second. How do we get "younger better Ben Wallace who is totally going to keep getting better" to start ahead Jonas Friggin' Valanciunas? And can we please have a bunch of posts about how the Raptors are run by a bunch of idiots who for some reason hired Dwayne Casey instead of Kurt Rambis? And maybe a few about how they totally had Johnny Flynn rated higher than Derozan? Thanking you in advance. And who knows? Maybe TOR signs Biyombo and MIN can "settle" for Valanciunas in a salary dump.

I never compared Wallace's PER to Biyomo's. I simply said that Biyombo's PER SPLIT (-.9) is very average. And I stand by that comment.

If a basketball team is good, it is because they played good basketball. You can play good basketball by either doing good things, or not letting your opponent do good things. You can't do neither of those things and still be good. Giving lots of money to a guy who really hasn't because you think he will is not bright. And simply saying that a move is not the least brightest doesn't then make it bright.

Can you win a champioship with Biyombo as your 3rd best post? Well, since TOR is 6 games away, I am going to say yes. Can you win with him as a starter? If you have 4 absolute studs surrounding him, I'm sure you can. But if you are paying him $20m, and you have to pay the others $25m, thats a $120m starting lineup for a team that doesn't even draw as well as The Wild. Is that really going to happen?

If you think that Casey would have to be idiot for not starting Biyombo ahead of Valenciunas if Biyombo is better, I guess you think also that Kerr was idiot since he was planning to start Lee ahead of Draymond Green until Lee was injured. Sometimes even good coaches find the best lineup somehow accidentally. I'm not necessarily saying that Biyombo is right now better than Valanciunas, but he is better fit for Toronto team and very important piece for them If they won't sign him, they will lose him for nothing. Since Valanciunas is also really good young center with pretty decent contract, they could get a lot in return if they would trade him. So I think Biyombo + what they would get in return if they would trade Valanciunas would be definitely better than having just Valanciunas.

If you don't believe that Biyombo is better fit than Valanciunas, go and check net rating for each player. Biyombo had slightly higher net rating over whole season (3.8 vs 3.0) but since he was new player in team it took a while to learn to play with his new teammates. So if check net rating from second half of the season, gap between Biyombo and Valanciunas is huge. (8.2 vs -0.4).

You didn't compare Wallace's PER to Biyombo but you acted like Biymbo's stat line that is pretty close to Wallace's line is just fluke. I understood that you value Ben Wallace a lot but not Biyombo and your reasoning for not valuing Biyombo is his PER splits. My comment was that if you use just PER splits for valuing players, also Ben Wallace would have looked pretty bad. So do you actually think that Ben Wallace too was average? PER in general favors high usage players and thus defensive studs like Wallace or Biyombo are vastly undervalued.

Toronto has done pretty well in post season in games that Valanciunas missed. I would argue that winning two games against Cleveland without Valanciunas means that they are legit contender even without him. I also think that Biyombo has been by far third most important player in those games after Lowty and DeRozan. So I would say that team with Biyombo as their third best player can be contender already now and since he is just 23 years old and has improved every season so far, it is very probable that he is even better in future.

This makes me wonder if Jonas would be available and what it would take to get him. I think he'd be a great fit next to Towns as a big body who can rebound and handle the opposing C in the post. He's signed for 4 years after this one at 16 per which is right around what people think Biyombo will get anyway.

I think it would take more than I would want to give up in terms of assts to get him as he is a nice young player (center) basically signed to what is going to look like a pretty reasonable contract after his summer.

I think it would take a third team giving them an established player or two and us giving that third team our pick. I was thinking Olynyk before I remembered they have a better pick than we do. Maybe Denver could throw some vets their way since they seem to be overstocked. Gallo to Toronto, Jonas to MN and 5 to Denver isn't bad. Toronto gets spacing they need. We get a big body we need and Denver adds a second top 10 pick to keep rebuilding around Jurkic, Nokic and Mudiay.

Camden wrote:I don't see Toronto moving JV, and I also think Denver would much rather move Faried instead of Gallo. Just my thoughts.

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:I don't see Toronto moving JV, and I also think Denver would much rather move Faried instead of Gallo. Just my thoughts.

Cam -- I agree that it's unlikely the Raptors will move JV. I also think you're right that the Nuggests would be inclined to move Faried before Gallo. That triggers a question. Should the Wolves be interested in acquiring Faried and, if so, what would the Wolves realistically need to give up to get him?