Minnesota Sports Forum

Wade Baldwin had 17 pts and 7 assists in Vanderbilt's tuesday win. They beat Texas A&M and they'll be in the dance. This kid keeps getting better. I want to see more basketball from him. He'll likely land in the teens unless he rips up the tournament. I would actually prefer him over Dunn at this point if we went PG.

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:I'd rather trade way down and grab Sabonis Jr. than get Poetl. Sabas can actually move his feet and can be useful on pick&roll defense which is way more important than guard Okafor twice per year and Sabas could do it as well. He's also a better rebounder and FT shooter. And Poetl isn't even an elite rim protector to gain some huge advantage over Sabas.

I like both Poeltl and Sabonis quite a lot, but I'm slightly confused by this post. I like that you appreciate Sabonis' defense, both man and team, and rebounding. He is good in all aspects that you named.

Here's where we disagree heavily.

- Poeltl is very mobile for a big and playing the P&R on defense, as well as offense, is a strength for him. He's capable of hedging hard and recovering to his man. He's shown that he can contain the ball-handler and contest pull-up jumpers. He's shown the ability to recover when he gets beat by a quicker guard and alter their shot at the rim. These are reasons why people like myself and others like his defensive upside.

- I brought up Poeltl's game against Okafor because Okafor was considered the most dominant offensive player in the NCAA last season, and Poeltl made him look mediocre. That was while being about 30 pounds lighter than Okafor at the time too, which makes his performance that much more impressive. He's since gained more strength and his ability to bang with bigger centers would be welcomed here. We've seen Towns and Dieng get muscled by the bigger centers in the game this year (Vucevic, Whiteside, Jordan, both Gasols and even Adams gave them plenty of body).

- With Towns showing star qualities already at such a young age, one might ask themselves where he could be played to prolong his career. We've seen Ming, Howard, M. Gasol and even Pekovic over the years all get injured playing the center position because of the brutality the position calls for. Centers take a beating night in and night out against other huge human beings while having to play on their toes to guard on the perimeter. That's a lot of work on the body, both the back and the feet specifically. I wonder if it's in our best interest to have Towns move to PF to make it a bit easier on his body going forward with the luxury of playing him at C as a way to change pace. I'm not completely sold on that idea, but it's worth asking, and Poeltl would be our dirty work big.

- Poeltl is an elite rim protector at the college level from what I've seen. He only records 1.5 BPG this season, but in watching his games you'll see he alters a lot more shots without getting hands on the basketball. That's more of an eye test, so I'm not proving that you're wrong in that regard, but I do think he's a very good paint and rim protector. Sabonis is not a rim protector by any means, so, Poeltl has a huge advantage here if we're comparing the two.

Q12543 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:

Camden wrote:I need to retract something I said before. I said I wouldn't draft Jakob Poetl in the top-seven, but I take that back. I'd probably take him as high as No. 3 overall for the Wolves

Cam - I like your take on this. Outside Simmons, Ingram, and Brown this draft doesn't have much for stud upside in my opinion. Seems like a draft full of projects or solid role players and a few starters.

Unless we get a top 3 pick I think we should really be thinking about how the player will fit with what we have. Meaning high IQ and being able to make Towns, LaVine, and Wiggins better.

Agreed. That's why guys like Poetl and Sabonis are "persons of interest". Neither are sexy picks, but they are both big bodies that appear to be OK grinding it out inside, grabbing rebounds, and scoring buckets inside the paint. And they both seem to be pretty smart players. I suppose Poetl is ranked a lot higher than Sabonis because of his size - he's a true Center whereas Sabonis is more of an NBA PF.

The big question to me is defense. It seems really hard to gauge how a big man in college translates to the NBA defensively. Look at Gorgui Dieng as an example. He helped anchor the #1 defense in the nation when Louisville won a title. I thought he would be a terror defensively in the NBA. Instead, he's turned out to be a sieve in the paint but pretty damn good offensively.

I also suggest that the combine institute some sort of test for lower body strength. How many times a guy can bench press 185 lbs. seems totally useless to me (Kevin Durant did it exactly zero times - he couldn't even do one rep). Instead, they should do a deadlift or squat test. Lower body and core strength seems a gazillion times more critical, especially for a big man, than upper body strength.

A lower body strength measurement does make a lot of sense.

bleedspeed177 wrote:Cam - As usual. Great stuff. Guarding Okafor is not easy and him being able to shut him down shows he will be fine in the NBA. I would rather have someone else bodying up others bigs then Towns longer term.

What if you just drafted Poetl and the Kings called and offered you WCS straight up for him. What do you do?

As much as I love(ed) Cauley-Stein as a prospect, I think I'd rather have Poeltl for the sheer fact that he's thicker and stronger. Cauley-Stein's advantage is his agility and athleticism which will allow him to be able to switch on to perimeter players and be a factor in that regard, but I like Poeltl's ability to bang and win on the glass while defend decently on the perimeter. If Cauley-Stein had more ass, I might be choosing him, but I'd go with the big guy from Austria if I had to.

I can see both sides of the argument between high level talent and getting a player that is good and fits with the team. On one hand this may be the last time we truly have a shot at getting a top level high draft pick so swing for the fences within reason. On the other hand picking a guy that has a high floor and fits with the guys we have makes a lot of sense as well. Obviously the big question is how much you like the guys that are available and the upside/risk as well. The good news is either way you go there is ally of ways the Wolves can go because the roster is pretty fluid although I think it would be tough for me to take a SG with Lavine looking like the guy there and hoping you can find a tough SF to play minutes to slide Wiggins over to SG at times. Right now it does feel like if the Wolves can just get a guy that can play (and not be a bust) it would be good enough.

Camden wrote:

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:I'd rather trade way down and grab Sabonis Jr. than get Poetl. Sabas can actually move his feet and can be useful on pick&roll defense which is way more important than guard Okafor twice per year and Sabas could do it as well. He's also a better rebounder and FT shooter. And Poetl isn't even an elite rim protector to gain some huge advantage over Sabas.

I like both Poeltl and Sabonis quite a lot, but I'm slightly confused by this post. I like that you appreciate Sabonis' defense, both man and team, and rebounding. He is good in all aspects that you named.

Here's where we disagree heavily.

- Poeltl is very mobile for a big and playing the P&R on defense, as well as offense, is a strength for him. He's capable of hedging hard and recovering to his man. He's shown that he can contain the ball-handler and contest pull-up jumpers. He's shown the ability to recover when he gets beat by a quicker guard and alter their shot at the rim. These are reasons why people like myself and others like his defensive upside.

- I brought up Poeltl's game against Okafor because Okafor was considered the most dominant offensive player in the NCAA last season, and Poeltl made him look mediocre. That was while being about 30 pounds lighter than Okafor at the time too, which makes his performance that much more impressive. He's since gained more strength and his ability to bang with bigger centers would be welcomed here. We've seen Towns and Dieng get muscled by the bigger centers in the game this year (Vucevic, Whiteside, Jordan, both Gasols and even Adams gave them plenty of body).

- With Towns showing star qualities already at such a young age, one might ask themselves where he could be played to prolong his career. We've seen Ming, Howard, M. Gasol and even Pekovic over the years all get injured playing the center position because of the brutality the position calls for. Centers take a beating night in and night out against other huge human beings while having to play on their toes to guard on the perimeter. That's a lot of work on the body, both the back and the feet specifically. I wonder if it's in our best interest to have Towns move to PF to make it a bit easier on his body going forward with the luxury of playing him at C as a way to change pace. I'm not completely sold on that idea, but it's worth asking, and Poeltl would be our dirty work big.

- Poeltl is an elite rim protector at the college level from what I've seen. He only records 1.5 BPG this season, but in watching his games you'll see he alters a lot more shots without getting hands on the basketball. That's more of an eye test, so I'm not proving that you're wrong in that regard, but I do think he's a very good paint and rim protector. Sabonis is not a rim protector by any means, so, Poeltl has a huge advantage here if we're comparing the two.

You maybe right on many of those accounts. But Poetl movemets looks a little stiff to me and it may be magnified on NBA level. Sabonis looks much more energetic and lively to me and his ability to guard both PFs and Cs looks better fit to me next to Towns and Dieng. But Sabonis is obviously no rim protector but I think you undersell both KAT and Dieng's rim protection. I think KAT can be spared of doing the bulk of dirty work by both Dieng and Sabonis.

But the main difference between Sabonis and Poetl for me is their projected draft positions. I don't see 15+ slots between them.

You maybe right on many of those accounts. But Poetl movemets looks a little stiff to me and it may be magnified on NBA level. Sabonis looks much more energetic and lively to me and his ability to guard both PFs and Cs looks better fit to me next to Towns and Dieng. But Sabonis is obviously no rim protector but I think you undersell both KAT and Dieng's rim protection. I think KAT can be spared of doing the bulk of dirty work by both Dieng and Sabonis.

But the main difference between Sabonis and Poetl for me is their projected draft positions. I don't see 15+ slots between them.

Poeltl's mobility looks comparable to Towns' when he was at Kentucky to me. Different players, but we're focusing on mobility. He's a smooth athlete for being a seven-footer.

Sabonis is definitely energetic and it's abundantly clear with him as he wears his emotions on his sleeve night in and night out, but he and Poeltl both have high motors. It's a likable attribute to them both.

Sabonis cannot guard NBA centers at the next level. He doesn't have the necessary length or vertical to really bother anybody. And as previously noted, he's not a rim protector.

From my point of view, Dieng's rim protection isn't what it's made out to be. He's better coming from the weak side and altering a shot than he is being the big between the ball-handler/post player and the rim. His defensive strength is playing the P&R, not really as a shot-altering big.

Lastly, I agree with you. I don't see 15+ draft spots between Poeltl and Sabonis like other draft sites might. I think Sabonis deserves to be a lottery pick and Poeltl's a top-10 lock, but I would be fine with taking Poeltl over guys that have a higher upside than him if that makes sense.

They actually have similar overall games, but with Poeltl you're getting just about everything you would with Sabonis, but the added benefit of rim protection and length. The center position has more value than the power forward position does when discussing defense, and that to me is our biggest team weakness: defense. That's why you see rim protecting bigs make twice as much money.

Camden wrote:
Sabonis cannot guard NBA centers at the next level. He doesn't have the necessary length or vertical to really bother anybody. And as previously noted, he's not a rim protector.

If you can get low and push out a center further away from the rim, you can guard that position even without length. That's how Pekovic did it, and even KLove to some extent. I see that ability in Sabonis.

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:

Camden wrote:
Sabonis cannot guard NBA centers at the next level. He doesn't have the necessary length or vertical to really bother anybody. And as previously noted, he's not a rim protector.

If you can get low and push out a center further away from the rim, you can guard that position even without length. That's how Pekovic did it, and even KLove to some extent. I see that ability in Sabonis.

Pekovic was 6'11, 290 pounds. Sabonis is 6'10, 240 pounds. There's a difference in body types. Sabonis can get as low as he wants to, but he's not hanging with DeMarcus Cousins or Brook Lopez one on one. They're just too big. He's also not stopping DeAndre Jordan from going over him. He's a power forward in the NBA.

Camden wrote:

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:

Camden wrote:
Sabonis cannot guard NBA centers at the next level. He doesn't have the necessary length or vertical to really bother anybody. And as previously noted, he's not a rim protector.

If you can get low and push out a center further away from the rim, you can guard that position even without length. That's how Pekovic did it, and even KLove to some extent. I see that ability in Sabonis.

Pekovic was 6'11, 290 pounds. Sabonis is 6'10, 240 pounds. There's a difference in body types. Sabonis can get as low as he wants to, but he's not hanging with DeMarcus Cousins or Brook Lopez one on one. They're just too big. He's also not stopping DeAndre Jordan from going over him. He's a power forward in the NBA.

Guys like Love and Nick Colison proved that they can do a shift at center. I'm not saying Sabonis can go full time at center. We have KAT and he's a center, so that should be enough. Even guys like Duncan and Davis, who have been protected by their franchises, both have played plenty of minutes at center. Drafting a guy top 10 to be a role player who's meant to protect KAT isn't good for me. Role players shouldn't come that costly.