Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:John Collins had 35 points with 8 rebounds and 2 steals tonight. He was 4 for 4 from behind the arc. LaVine had another nice game with 23 points, including 10 trips to the line, hitting 9 of those 10 free throws.

Teams do very little to develop players in my view - except perhaps to some extent by giving them ample playing time and putting them in a system that maximizes their strengths while minimizing their weaknesses. What matters most by far is who you draft, who you keep and who you trade. You draft Justin Patton instead of John Collins. You draft Dunn instead of Murray or Hield. You trade down in the draft instead of drafting McCollum and then draft Bazz instead of Giannis. You sell your late 1st round pick for cash rather than draft Rudy Gobert. You notice after a couple seasons that Wiggins has a poor handle that's not improving and a lack of intensity, yet you don't move him when he still has trade value. You do all those things and you're going to have problems. Getting lucky enough to have the top pick when KAT was in the draft and landing Okogie at #20 last June were good moves, but not enough to make up for the long list of major mistakes we've seen from the last two Wolves front office regimes.

The Wolves problem isn't a failure to develop players. The organization's problem has been a pattern of poor player personnel decisions - especially in the draft.

First of all yes you gotta pick the right guys. However...So all these players that go to the Nets that seemingly play their best basketball or return to playing good basketball again are because the nets are just picking the right players? What about all the teams Dinwiddie was on before? Joe Harris? Toronto paid to get rid of Demarre Carroll*. Spurs always pick the right guy it's not about development? Sure you have to pick the right players (we haven't done that either) but development and the organization does matter. It's some of both Lip and plenty of guys in this organization have gotten a chance to play.

* Toronto has done a hell of a job of building their roster but payin g to get rid of Carroll and then replacing him with C.J. Miles was not a good move. Carroll has statistically been a better player than Miles. Yes Carroll made a lot more money than Miles but...that series of moves including moving on from Corey Joseph to get Miles doesn't look great in hindsight. Thank goodness Thibs and Layden didn't give up a 1st round pick to get Miles. That may have been a disaster (assuming Miles was very meh for us) and meant no promising young player like Okogie.

Paying to get rid of a player is a personnel move, not player development. Toronto made a bad move getting rid of Carroll and another bad move acquiring CJ Miles. Note that Carroll had better seasons before he was with the Nets and that he's regressed statistically this season compared to last. Russell was a terrific talent coming out of college I'd say it was a matter of time before he either got it or didn't. He appears to be getting it in his 4th season. Allen was another excellent talent coming out of college. He was a good draft pick. Fortunately for the Nets they were smart enough to draft him rather than Patton. As for the other guys, Dinwiddie was getting 13 minutes a game in Detroit compared to over 22 minutes his first season with the Nets and then even more minutes his next two seasons. Joe Harris jumped from minutes in the single digits with Cleveland to 22 minutes his first year with the Nets.

As I said, a team can help a player develop. But it's mainly minutes - quantity and consistency of minutes - and system, not some special talent among coaches for developing players. The genius of the Spurs organization lies primary in its player personnel judgment - the ability to identify talent - Manu, Parker, Kawhai - better than other teams. Players generally develop there because Popovich is a great coach who adapts his system to the players he has. So as he brings in young talent, he designs his style of play to fit that talent. For example, he changed his system to a more PG-oriented system after drafting Parker. And you've probably heard the story of how Popovich initially bristled at Manu's crazy shots but how he very quickly decided to just let Manu be Manu.

So yes, giving significant, consistent minutes to young talent, designing you system to fit that talent and then letting them play to their respective strengths all matter. But I'd venture a guess that Parker, Manu and Leonard would have become great players no matter where they ended up. Had Dinwiddie continued to get only 13 minutes a game, he might be in the G-League right now. Bates-Diop won't develop as an NBA player unless/until he gets NBA minutes.

Player development can help. So does playing time.

But it's mostly up to the players. Players should get the lion's share of the credit for making it in this league and improving.

monsterpile wrote:
First of all yes you gotta pick the right guys. However...So all these players that go to the Nets that seemingly play their best basketball or return to playing good basketball again are because the nets are just picking the right players? What about all the teams Dinwiddie was on before? Joe Harris? Toronto paid to get rid of Demarre Carroll*. Spurs always pick the right guy it's not about development? Sure you have to pick the right players (we haven't done that either) but development and the organization does matter. It's some of both Lip and plenty of guys in this organization have gotten a chance to play.

* Toronto has done a hell of a job of building their roster but payin g to get rid of Carroll and then replacing him with C.J. Miles was not a good move. Carroll has statistically been a better player than Miles. Yes Carroll made a lot more money than Miles but...that series of moves including moving on from Corey Joseph to get Miles doesn't look great in hindsight. Thank goodness Thibs and Layden didn't give up a 1st round pick to get Miles. That may have been a disaster (assuming Miles was very meh for us) and meant no promising young player like Okogie.

I think Toronto moved Carroll mainly that they could resign both Ibaka and Lowry. Both moves seem to be great based on their recent success. They also had couple of cheaper promising 3&D wings in Powell and Anunoby to replace Carroll. Still Miles contract was clearly miss and they also most probably overpayed Powell even though he has been playing better this season.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:John Collins had 35 points with 8 rebounds and 2 steals tonight. He was 4 for 4 from behind the arc. LaVine had another nice game with 23 points, including 10 trips to the line, hitting 9 of those 10 free throws.

Teams do very little to develop players in my view - except perhaps to some extent by giving them ample playing time and putting them in a system that maximizes their strengths while minimizing their weaknesses. What matters most by far is who you draft, who you keep and who you trade. You draft Justin Patton instead of John Collins. You draft Dunn instead of Murray or Hield. You trade down in the draft instead of drafting McCollum and then draft Bazz instead of Giannis. You sell your late 1st round pick for cash rather than draft Rudy Gobert. You notice after a couple seasons that Wiggins has a poor handle that's not improving and a lack of intensity, yet you don't move him when he still has trade value. You do all those things and you're going to have problems. Getting lucky enough to have the top pick when KAT was in the draft and landing Okogie at #20 last June were good moves, but not enough to make up for the long list of major mistakes we've seen from the last two Wolves front office regimes.

The Wolves problem isn't a failure to develop players. The organization's problem has been a pattern of poor player personnel decisions - especially in the draft.

First of all yes you gotta pick the right guys. However...So all these players that go to the Nets that seemingly play their best basketball or return to playing good basketball again are because the nets are just picking the right players? What about all the teams Dinwiddie was on before? Joe Harris? Toronto paid to get rid of Demarre Carroll*. Spurs always pick the right guy it's not about development? Sure you have to pick the right players (we haven't done that either) but development and the organization does matter. It's some of both Lip and plenty of guys in this organization have gotten a chance to play.

* Toronto has done a hell of a job of building their roster but payin g to get rid of Carroll and then replacing him with C.J. Miles was not a good move. Carroll has statistically been a better player than Miles. Yes Carroll made a lot more money than Miles but...that series of moves including moving on from Corey Joseph to get Miles doesn't look great in hindsight. Thank goodness Thibs and Layden didn't give up a 1st round pick to get Miles. That may have been a disaster (assuming Miles was very meh for us) and meant no promising young player like Okogie.

Paying to get rid of a player is a personnel move, not player development. Toronto made a bad move getting rid of Carroll and another bad move acquiring CJ Miles. Note that Carroll had better seasons before he was with the Nets and that he's regressed statistically this season compared to last. Russell was a terrific talent coming out of college I'd say it was a matter of time before he either got it or didn't. He appears to be getting it in his 4th season. Allen was another excellent talent coming out of college. He was a good draft pick. Fortunately for the Nets they were smart enough to draft him rather than Patton. As for the other guys, Dinwiddie was getting 13 minutes a game in Detroit compared to over 22 minutes his first season with the Nets and then even more minutes his next two seasons. Joe Harris jumped from minutes in the single digits with Cleveland to 22 minutes his first year with the Nets.

As I said, a team can help a player develop. But it's mainly minutes - quantity and consistency of minutes - and system, not some special talent among coaches for developing players. The genius of the Spurs organization lies primary in its player personnel judgment - the ability to identify talent - Manu, Parker, Kawhai - better than other teams. Players generally develop there because Popovich is a great coach who adapts his system to the players he has. So as he brings in young talent, he designs his style of play to fit that talent. For example, he changed his system to a more PG-oriented system after drafting Parker. And you've probably heard the story of how Popovich initially bristled at Manu's crazy shots but how he very quickly decided to just let Manu be Manu.

So yes, giving significant, consistent minutes to young talent, designing you system to fit that talent and then letting them play to their respective strengths all matter. But I'd venture a guess that Parker, Manu and Leonard would have become great players no matter where they ended up. Had Dinwiddie continued to get only 13 minutes a game, he might be in the G-League right now. Bates-Diop won't develop as an NBA player unless/until he gets NBA minutes.

"Paying to get rid of a player is a personnel move, not player development" I thought it was all about the players you brought in? ;)

Look at some of Toronto's guys some of them didn't play much early in their career. They played at the G-league level and the Raptors used that to develop those guys. We often disagree with how guys devolop the best but it's kinda amusing that it seems like development now doesn't matter. To quote Thibs "Come on man!!!" :) Side note it's weird that Thibs is gone and I have that phrase run through my mind more now than when he was here. Something is wrong with me. Lol

Ok here is the thing regardless of how we think we need to get there (probably pretty close really in how we want it to happen) we want the same things good players because we are a good franchise. We can't say that and haven't been able to that too many years in like 30 years. Hell it would be great to be more average meaning fairly competent. It would be nice to have the same competent people in charge for like 4-5 years so we could have some sort of consistency because that hurts the whole process of selection and development. It's not the NFL you pick talent not fit but I think there are times you can pick the wrong guy because you pick the wrong guy in a tier of guys that doesn't fit as well. I hope Ryan is the right guy or we find the right guys this offseason. It's getting old.

Meanwhile the Pels...Mirotic is out a week or 2 with a calf strain. The Pels haven't exactly been terrific during AD's time there but honestly the last 2 seasons they have done a lot right adding some legit players to the roster to help. If that team would have stayed somewhat healthy I think they had a chance to be something worth building with. I don't think they are gonna have a chance to do that now. There is still a chance but...it's gonna be tough if they can't get healthy and that's a big question going forward.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:John Collins had 35 points with 8 rebounds and 2 steals tonight. He was 4 for 4 from behind the arc. LaVine had another nice game with 23 points, including 10 trips to the line, hitting 9 of those 10 free throws.

Teams do very little to develop players in my view - except perhaps to some extent by giving them ample playing time and putting them in a system that maximizes their strengths while minimizing their weaknesses. What matters most by far is who you draft, who you keep and who you trade. You draft Justin Patton instead of John Collins. You draft Dunn instead of Murray or Hield. You trade down in the draft instead of drafting McCollum and then draft Bazz instead of Giannis. You sell your late 1st round pick for cash rather than draft Rudy Gobert. You notice after a couple seasons that Wiggins has a poor handle that's not improving and a lack of intensity, yet you don't move him when he still has trade value. You do all those things and you're going to have problems. Getting lucky enough to have the top pick when KAT was in the draft and landing Okogie at #20 last June were good moves, but not enough to make up for the long list of major mistakes we've seen from the last two Wolves front office regimes.

The Wolves problem isn't a failure to develop players. The organization's problem has been a pattern of poor player personnel decisions - especially in the draft.

First of all yes you gotta pick the right guys. However...So all these players that go to the Nets that seemingly play their best basketball or return to playing good basketball again are because the nets are just picking the right players? What about all the teams Dinwiddie was on before? Joe Harris? Toronto paid to get rid of Demarre Carroll*. Spurs always pick the right guy it's not about development? Sure you have to pick the right players (we haven't done that either) but development and the organization does matter. It's some of both Lip and plenty of guys in this organization have gotten a chance to play.

* Toronto has done a hell of a job of building their roster but payin g to get rid of Carroll and then replacing him with C.J. Miles was not a good move. Carroll has statistically been a better player than Miles. Yes Carroll made a lot more money than Miles but...that series of moves including moving on from Corey Joseph to get Miles doesn't look great in hindsight. Thank goodness Thibs and Layden didn't give up a 1st round pick to get Miles. That may have been a disaster (assuming Miles was very meh for us) and meant no promising young player like Okogie.

Paying to get rid of a player is a personnel move, not player development. Toronto made a bad move getting rid of Carroll and another bad move acquiring CJ Miles. Note that Carroll had better seasons before he was with the Nets and that he's regressed statistically this season compared to last. Russell was a terrific talent coming out of college I'd say it was a matter of time before he either got it or didn't. He appears to be getting it in his 4th season. Allen was another excellent talent coming out of college. He was a good draft pick. Fortunately for the Nets they were smart enough to draft him rather than Patton. As for the other guys, Dinwiddie was getting 13 minutes a game in Detroit compared to over 22 minutes his first season with the Nets and then even more minutes his next two seasons. Joe Harris jumped from minutes in the single digits with Cleveland to 22 minutes his first year with the Nets.

As I said, a team can help a player develop. But it's mainly minutes - quantity and consistency of minutes - and system, not some special talent among coaches for developing players. The genius of the Spurs organization lies primary in its player personnel judgment - the ability to identify talent - Manu, Parker, Kawhai - better than other teams. Players generally develop there because Popovich is a great coach who adapts his system to the players he has. So as he brings in young talent, he designs his style of play to fit that talent. For example, he changed his system to a more PG-oriented system after drafting Parker. And you've probably heard the story of how Popovich initially bristled at Manu's crazy shots but how he very quickly decided to just let Manu be Manu.

So yes, giving significant, consistent minutes to young talent, designing you system to fit that talent and then letting them play to their respective strengths all matter. But I'd venture a guess that Parker, Manu and Leonard would have become great players no matter where they ended up. Had Dinwiddie continued to get only 13 minutes a game, he might be in the G-League right now. Bates-Diop won't develop as an NBA player unless/until he gets NBA minutes.

"Paying to get rid of a player is a personnel move, not player development" I thought it was all about the players you brought in? ;)

Look at some of Toronto's guys some of them didn't play much early in their career. They played at the G-league level and the Raptors used that to develop those guys. We often disagree with how guys devolop the best but it's kinda amusing that it seems like development now doesn't matter. To quote Thibs "Come on man!!!" :) Side note it's weird that Thibs is gone and I have that phrase run through my mind more now than when he was here. Something is wrong with me. Lol

Ok here is the thing regardless of how we think we need to get there (probably pretty close really in how we want it to happen) we want the same things good players because we are a good franchise. We can't say that and haven't been able to that too many years in like 30 years. Hell it would be great to be more average meaning fairly competent. It would be nice to have the same competent people in charge for like 4-5 years so we could have some sort of consistency because that hurts the whole process of selection and development. It's not the NFL you pick talent not fit but I think there are times you can pick the wrong guy because you pick the wrong guy in a tier of guys that doesn't fit as well. I hope Ryan is the right guy or we find the right guys this offseason. It's getting old.

Who says "development doesn't matter"? Of course it matters. My point is that players develop or not based on who they are - their talent, work ethic, drive, determination and intelligence. Give players with the attributes to develop the opportunity to do so -- adequate playing time and a system that allows them to effectively use their talents -- and they will develop. KG, Kevin Love, KAT have all developed into great players with the Wolves organization. Billups would have developed into a great player if the Wolves have stuck with him rather than opting for the "win-now" strategy of Terrell Brandon as the team's starting PG. I should add being patient to the list of things an organization can do to facilitate player development. Billups was going to develop. He need time and opportunity with an organization willing to be patient and give him that opportunity. The failure with Billups was, again, bad personnel judgment letting him go after a good personnel decision to sign him. Ebi wasn't going to develop with any organization under any circumstances. Again, a bad personnel decision drafting him over, among others, Josh Howard.

So yes, it's getting old. What's getting old is NOT watching a ton of NBA players who were terrible playing here only to go on and develop into really good players with other organizations. I can't think of any players who fall into that category other than Billups. But again, Detroit didn't do anything magical to develop him; he simply got playing time with an organization patient and smart enough to go with him instead of some broken down alternative like Brandon. What's getting old is watching successive Wolves' front office executives make too many terrible player personnel (including draft) decisions. Whoeven ends up staffing the Wolves front office going forward needs to do much better, building around Flip's signature decision to draft KAT and Thibodeau's one good draft decision to take Okogie. We need and should expect a front office that makes consistently smart personnel decisions so that good decision-making becomes the norm rather than the exception.

Draft and sign good players with the character attributes to improve, give them meaningful playing time and show patience. Do those things and those players will develop no matter who we hire as our shooting coach. :)

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:John Collins had 35 points with 8 rebounds and 2 steals tonight. He was 4 for 4 from behind the arc. LaVine had another nice game with 23 points, including 10 trips to the line, hitting 9 of those 10 free throws.

Teams do very little to develop players in my view - except perhaps to some extent by giving them ample playing time and putting them in a system that maximizes their strengths while minimizing their weaknesses. What matters most by far is who you draft, who you keep and who you trade. You draft Justin Patton instead of John Collins. You draft Dunn instead of Murray or Hield. You trade down in the draft instead of drafting McCollum and then draft Bazz instead of Giannis. You sell your late 1st round pick for cash rather than draft Rudy Gobert. You notice after a couple seasons that Wiggins has a poor handle that's not improving and a lack of intensity, yet you don't move him when he still has trade value. You do all those things and you're going to have problems. Getting lucky enough to have the top pick when KAT was in the draft and landing Okogie at #20 last June were good moves, but not enough to make up for the long list of major mistakes we've seen from the last two Wolves front office regimes.

The Wolves problem isn't a failure to develop players. The organization's problem has been a pattern of poor player personnel decisions - especially in the draft.

First of all yes you gotta pick the right guys. However...So all these players that go to the Nets that seemingly play their best basketball or return to playing good basketball again are because the nets are just picking the right players? What about all the teams Dinwiddie was on before? Joe Harris? Toronto paid to get rid of Demarre Carroll*. Spurs always pick the right guy it's not about development? Sure you have to pick the right players (we haven't done that either) but development and the organization does matter. It's some of both Lip and plenty of guys in this organization have gotten a chance to play.

* Toronto has done a hell of a job of building their roster but payin g to get rid of Carroll and then replacing him with C.J. Miles was not a good move. Carroll has statistically been a better player than Miles. Yes Carroll made a lot more money than Miles but...that series of moves including moving on from Corey Joseph to get Miles doesn't look great in hindsight. Thank goodness Thibs and Layden didn't give up a 1st round pick to get Miles. That may have been a disaster (assuming Miles was very meh for us) and meant no promising young player like Okogie.

Paying to get rid of a player is a personnel move, not player development. Toronto made a bad move getting rid of Carroll and another bad move acquiring CJ Miles. Note that Carroll had better seasons before he was with the Nets and that he's regressed statistically this season compared to last. Russell was a terrific talent coming out of college I'd say it was a matter of time before he either got it or didn't. He appears to be getting it in his 4th season. Allen was another excellent talent coming out of college. He was a good draft pick. Fortunately for the Nets they were smart enough to draft him rather than Patton. As for the other guys, Dinwiddie was getting 13 minutes a game in Detroit compared to over 22 minutes his first season with the Nets and then even more minutes his next two seasons. Joe Harris jumped from minutes in the single digits with Cleveland to 22 minutes his first year with the Nets.

As I said, a team can help a player develop. But it's mainly minutes - quantity and consistency of minutes - and system, not some special talent among coaches for developing players. The genius of the Spurs organization lies primary in its player personnel judgment - the ability to identify talent - Manu, Parker, Kawhai - better than other teams. Players generally develop there because Popovich is a great coach who adapts his system to the players he has. So as he brings in young talent, he designs his style of play to fit that talent. For example, he changed his system to a more PG-oriented system after drafting Parker. And you've probably heard the story of how Popovich initially bristled at Manu's crazy shots but how he very quickly decided to just let Manu be Manu.

So yes, giving significant, consistent minutes to young talent, designing you system to fit that talent and then letting them play to their respective strengths all matter. But I'd venture a guess that Parker, Manu and Leonard would have become great players no matter where they ended up. Had Dinwiddie continued to get only 13 minutes a game, he might be in the G-League right now. Bates-Diop won't develop as an NBA player unless/until he gets NBA minutes.

"Paying to get rid of a player is a personnel move, not player development" I thought it was all about the players you brought in? ;)

Look at some of Toronto's guys some of them didn't play much early in their career. They played at the G-league level and the Raptors used that to develop those guys. We often disagree with how guys devolop the best but it's kinda amusing that it seems like development now doesn't matter. To quote Thibs "Come on man!!!" :) Side note it's weird that Thibs is gone and I have that phrase run through my mind more now than when he was here. Something is wrong with me. Lol

Ok here is the thing regardless of how we think we need to get there (probably pretty close really in how we want it to happen) we want the same things good players because we are a good franchise. We can't say that and haven't been able to that too many years in like 30 years. Hell it would be great to be more average meaning fairly competent. It would be nice to have the same competent people in charge for like 4-5 years so we could have some sort of consistency because that hurts the whole process of selection and development. It's not the NFL you pick talent not fit but I think there are times you can pick the wrong guy because you pick the wrong guy in a tier of guys that doesn't fit as well. I hope Ryan is the right guy or we find the right guys this offseason. It's getting old.

Who says "development doesn't matter"? Of course it matters. My point is that players develop or not based on who they are - their talent, work ethic, drive, determination and intelligence. Give players with the attributes to develop the opportunity to do so -- adequate playing time and a system that allows them to effectively use their talents -- and they will develop. KG, Kevin Love, KAT have all developed into great players with the Wolves organization. Billups would have developed into a great player if the Wolves have stuck with him rather than opting for the "win-now" strategy of Terrell Brandon as the team's starting PG. I should add being patient to the list of things an organization can do to facilitate player development. Billups was going to develop. He need time and opportunity with an organization willing to be patient and give him that opportunity. The failure with Billups was, again, bad personnel judgment letting him go after a good personnel decision to sign him. Ebi wasn't going to develop with any organization under any circumstances. Again, a bad personnel decision drafting him over, among others, Josh Howard.

So yes, it's getting old. What's getting old is NOT watching a ton of NBA players who were terrible playing here only to go on and develop into really good players with other organizations. I can't think of any players who fall into that category other than Billups. But again, Detroit didn't do anything magical to develop him; he simply got playing time with an organization patient and smart enough to go with him instead of some broken down alternative like Brandon. What's getting old is watching successive Wolves' front office executives make too many terrible player personnel (including draft) decisions. Whoeven ends up staffing the Wolves front office going forward needs to do much better, building around Flip's signature decision to draft KAT and Thibodeau's one good draft decision to take Okogie. We need and should expect a front office that makes consistently smart personnel decisions so that good decision-making becomes the norm rather than the exception.

Draft and sign good players with the character attributes to improve, give them meaningful playing time and show patience. Do those things and those players will develop no matter who we hire as our shooting coach. :)

Personally I'd argue that the Wolves were the ones that developed Billups. The Pistons were the smart ones to sign him. Keeping Brandon wouldn't have been such a disaster if he was able to stay healthy. Ironically Billups had problems staying healthy earlier in his career. And then you think about it if Cassel doesn't injure himself doing the dance...he would have faced off against Billups for the championship. Sigh...history says we are gonna screw up that position again and we have some talented guys at the position even Teague.

Which is something I was thinking about the other day. You know who would have liked working with all 3 of the PG's we have and probably could have gotten a lot out of them? Flip. That was one area I think you can say Flip was above average maybe much more than that he was good with PGs. That probably shows even more how much will avery just couldn't play that Flip couldn't get anything out of him. I agree with a lot of what you are saying to some extent guys either have something or they don't but I also think there is a real factor of development one player goes to one team instead of another can make or break a career and that can matter for a franchise. Yeah not for star players but some guys that could help your rotation. It does matter. Anywho good back and forth. I'll already remember that I watched the only good game of Will Avery's career live on TV. Lol

Anyone watching the Wiz/W's game? Fun game. Wiz are fun, they know how to run and play fast. The lineups the wolves run out there are so outdated. I know people love Taj, solid player but we need a more versatile 4. He's a 15-18 minute backup center. I'd try and trade Wig to Orlando for Gordon.

Watching Bulls/clips. Lauri/Zach/Dunn playing well.

Clips advertising Bumble dating app. Lol.

Jahil Okafor starting to look like the Duke version now. He has such nimble footwork.