Minnesota Sports Forum

thedoper wrote:Golden State crept into the top 10 in defensive rating. Not bad with and aging Draymond, a rookie, and two wings who had been lambasted for their D in previous stops. We love helping other teams out I suppose. They'll look good with our pick (either as a trade chip or player) and Klay back next year.

Yeah, Wig has actually turned into a decent defender since he joined the Warriors. But you're only telling one side of the story...you're conveniently leaving out that we got back a defensive stopper of our own in the Wig trade ;-) )

(or is "ball stopper not the same thing as "defensive stopper?)

FNG wrote:

thedoper wrote:Golden State crept into the top 10 in defensive rating. Not bad with and aging Draymond, a rookie, and two wings who had been lambasted for their D in previous stops. We love helping other teams out I suppose. They'll look good with our pick (either as a trade chip or player) and Klay back next year.

Yeah, Wig has actually turned into a decent defender since he joined the Warriors. But you're only telling one side of the story...you're conveniently leaving out that we got back a defensive stopper of our own in the Wig trade ;-) )

(or is "ball stopper not the same thing as "defensive stopper?)

Yeah Dlo didn't really change our defense. We're still near the bottom regardless of who we're putting out there. Maybe it is as simply as a lack of accountability in this franchise? Who are the players supposed to listen to? They're multi-millionaires with no pressure to try.

Andrew Wiggins is the same player he was all those years in Minnesota. He's just playing next to better players -- players that can lead/carry a team, which is something he proved in his five years for the Wolves that he could not do. Nothing has changed except for his role. It's become tiresome to see fans eat up this narrative that he's any better of a player in Golden State.

Camden0916 wrote:Andrew Wiggins is the same player he was all those years in Minnesota. He's just playing next to better players -- players that can lead/carry a team, which is something he proved in his five years for the Wolves that he could not do. Nothing has changed except for his role. It's become tiresome to see fans eat up this narrative that he's any better of a player in Golden State.

Forgive me if that comment wasn't directed at me, but I never personally said he is better nor am I trying to imply that. I think you're right that he's the same player. I think I've been pretty consistent with my Wiggins narrative. I think he was always better (especially on the defensive end) than he was given credit for here and he was absolutely put in a situation that he didn't have the capability to succeed in. I had always said about Wiggins that the worst thing for him was being a #1 pick and having those expectations around him. He's put in a good role in GS and it's playing to his strengths. Also to repeat my perspective though probably no one really cares, I still think Dlo is a better player than Wiggins and would rather have DLo on my basketball team.

Minnesota had a "pass-first" point guard in Ricky Rubio for many years. What most of us realized then was that we needed a lead guard that can also make shots -- create offense for himself while facilitating for teammates. We finally have that with D'Angelo Russell. He does both and to call him a ball-stopper just isn't fair. He averages more passes per game than Kyrie Irving, Jamal Murray, and John Wall and is just behind Damian Lillard, Steph Curry, and Mike Conley. Meanwhile his AST% is higher than Kyle Lowry, Malcolm Brogdon, Giannis Antetokounmpo, and Kyrie Irving. This just isn't achievable if a player doesn't move the rock. You're free to dislike or disagree with his play style, but he's not any different from many quality players in the league in this regard. These players use their scoring ability to set up their passing.

And while he's not a perfect point guard by any means, he's still better than what we've had before. There's no doubt about that in my mind.

thedoper wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Andrew Wiggins is the same player he was all those years in Minnesota. He's just playing next to better players -- players that can lead/carry a team, which is something he proved in his five years for the Wolves that he could not do. Nothing has changed except for his role. It's become tiresome to see fans eat up this narrative that he's any better of a player in Golden State.

Forgive me if that comment wasn't directed at me, but I never personally said he is better nor am I trying to imply that. I think you're right that he's the same player. I think I've been pretty consistent with my Wiggins narrative. I think he was always better (especially on the defensive end) than he was given credit for here and he was absolutely put in a situation that he didn't have the capability to succeed in. I had always said about Wiggins that the worst thing for him was being a #1 pick and having those expectations around him. He's put in a good role in GS and it's playing to his strengths. Also to repeat my perspective though probably no one really cares, I still think Dlo is a better player than Wiggins and would rather have DLo on my basketball team.

Nope! That wasn't directed towards you, doper. I feel like you've maintained a consistent and fair view of Andrew Wiggins throughout his career and even now that he's moved on to Golden State. And while we've disagreed on Wiggins the player from time to time, I could always understand where you were coming from. I too think his draft status and eventually his annual salary hurt him specifically due to what was expected of him.

But the thought that has circulated from national media and to public forums recently that Wiggins has somehow transcended into a superior player than he has been before is flat out wrong.

Blame the media, blame the fans, blame everyone with eyes who thinks Wiggins is better than DLO. Feel better?

Even if you can rationalize that DLO is somehow better than Wiggins, the draft picks that were given up could set this franchise back years. Whether its 2021 or 2022, the Warriors should have the opportunity to get a franchise cornerstone, plus a pick in the 31 to 35 range in what is expected to be a very good draft.

I'm not going to get into the DLO-Wiggins debate, except to say that I agree with Cam that this narrative about a better Wiggins is a false one. Yes, his stats are better, but as Cam indicated, he's playing alongside Steph Curry and is playing for a really good head coach who knows how to use him. I still see DLO as a small upgrade over Wiggins, but I agree that we gave up way too much to get him. I just wish we had a head coach who knew how to get the most out of him.

Top individual performances last night:

Vucevic: 43 points, 19 rebounds, 4 assists and 1 block. 17-29FG, 4-10 3pt, 5-6FT
LaMello: 34 points, 8 assists, 4 rebounds, 2 steals and 0 turnovers. 14-27FG, 4-9 3pt
Siakam: 33 points, 11 rebounds, 6 assists. 12-23FG, 9-10 FT
Giannis: 33 points, 12 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 blocks. 13-25FG, 6-8FT
Bogdanovic: 31 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists. 10-15FG, 7-10 3pt, 4-4FT
Mitchell: 30 points, 5 assists, 1 steal. 10-18FG, 5-9 3pt, 5-6FT
Tatum: 34 points, 7 rebounds, 4 steals. 12-27FG, 5-10 3pt, 5-6FT
Ingram: 30 points, 7 assists, 6 rebounds. 12-21FG, 3-6 3pt, 3-3FT
Kawhi; 28 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists. 8-19FG, 0-5 3pt., 12-14FT
Hayward: 25 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists. 9-20FG, 1-5 3pt, 6-6FT

Honorable Mention Performances:

LaVine: 26 points, 8 assists, 4 rebounds, 1 steal, 1 turnover. 9-21FG, 1-5 3 pt., 7-7FT
Nunn: 25 points, 8 rebounds. 11-17FG, 2-3 3pt, 1-2FT, +17

Wolves Players Who Almost Made It:

Beasley: 24 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal, 2 turnovers, 9-19FG, 6-12 3pt, 0-0FT
DLO: 21 points, 4 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 steal, 5 turnovers. 7-13FG, 5-8 3pt., 2-2FT

So why didn't Beasley at least make the honorable mention list? It was a close call. But I just couldn't get past his -18 and zero free throws, although I know the plus/minus is highly flawed as a measure of a player's performance in one game. Moreover, he fell short of my 25-point cut-off.

How about DLO? His -1 plus/minus was comparable to LaVine's -2, but I just couldn't get past DLO's 5 turnovers. He also fell well short of my 25-point cutoff. And like Beasley, his performance was against an almost G-League caliber lineup.