Around the league thread

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Seeing LaMello on that list makes me a bit sick. He is a flat out stud. Another miss by our front office (and yes, most of us were wrong about him too).

[Lipoli390]

Seeing LaMello on that list makes me a bit sick. He is a flat out stud. Another miss by our front office (and yes, most of us were wrong about him too).

Yes, I was among those who got it wrong on LaMello. But we know that many of us on this board have been consistently right when this and prior Wolves front offices have gotten it wrong, e.g.:

- McCollum or Giannis over Bazz (me and others)
- Gobert over cash (everyone on this board)
- Murray or Hield over Dunn (Cam, me and others)
- Collins or Anunoby over Patton (me and others)
- Not trading up for Culver (nearly everyone on this board)
- Herro over Culver (Cam)
- Wiseman over Edwards (Cam and most others. Jury's still out, but I'll bet Cam ends up right)

Just once - just once, I want to see the Wolves front office get it right when I and others on this board get it wrong. Or maybe they could start consulting this message board to inform their draft decisions.

[Lipoli390]

Top individual performances last night:

Vucevic: 43 points, 19 rebounds, 4 assists and 1 block. 17-29FG, 4-10 3pt, 5-6FT
LaMello: 34 points, 8 assists, 4 rebounds, 2 steals and 0 turnovers. 14-27FG, 4-9 3pt
Siakam: 33 points, 11 rebounds, 6 assists. 12-23FG, 9-10 FT
Giannis: 33 points, 12 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 blocks. 13-25FG, 6-8FT
Bogdanovic: 31 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists. 10-15FG, 7-10 3pt, 4-4FT
Mitchell: 30 points, 5 assists, 1 steal. 10-18FG, 5-9 3pt, 5-6FT
Tatum: 34 points, 7 rebounds, 4 steals. 12-27FG, 5-10 3pt, 5-6FT
Ingram: 30 points, 7 assists, 6 rebounds. 12-21FG, 3-6 3pt, 3-3FT
Kawhi; 28 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists. 8-19FG, 0-5 3pt., 12-14FT
Hayward: 25 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists. 9-20FG, 1-5 3pt, 6-6FT

Honorable Mention Performances:

LaVine: 26 points, 8 assists, 4 rebounds, 1 steal, 1 turnover. 9-21FG, 1-5 3 pt., 7-7FT
Nunn: 25 points, 8 rebounds. 11-17FG, 2-3 3pt, 1-2FT, +17

Wolves Players Who Almost Made It:

Beasley: 24 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal, 2 turnovers, 9-19FG, 6-12 3pt, 0-0FT
DLO: 21 points, 4 rebounds, 6b assists, 1 steal, 5 turnovers. 7-13FG, 5-8 3pt., 2-2FT

[Lipoli390]

How about Zach LaVine tonight? 46 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists and 1 block with a +20 in a winning effort. What if the Wolves had traded Wiggins, kept LaVine and Dunn and drafted Collins? Butler might still be here in a starting lineup with KAT, LaVine, Dunn and Collins. Who knows. In any event, LaVine has been impressive this season.

[Wolvesfan21]

Seeing LaMello on that list makes me a bit sick. He is a flat out stud. Another miss by our front office (and yes, most of us were wrong about him too).

Yes, I was among those who got it wrong on LaMello. But we know that many of us on this board have been consistently right when this and prior Wolves front offices have gotten it wrong, e.g.:

- McCollum or Giannis over Bazz (me and others)
- Gobert over cash (everyone on this board)
- Murray or Hield over Dunn (Cam, me and others)
- Collins or Anunoby over Patton (me and others)
- Not trading up for Culver (nearly everyone on this board)
- Herro over Culver (Cam)
- Wiseman over Edwards (Cam and most others. Jury's still out, but I'll bet Cam ends up right)

Just once - just once, I want to see the Wolves front office get it right when I and others on this board get it wrong. Or maybe they could start consulting this message board to inform their draft decisions.

Usually the group consensus of experts gets things right much more often then one "expert" calling the shots. If you take the consensus of this board the Wolves would be winners. We can have an open debate on who should be the pick and sway votes of others. Versus one person making his own decision based on the opinions of scouts where the one person may simply go with who he likes. That's a poor way of making decisions.

[kekgeek]

How about Zach LaVine tonight? 46 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists and 1 block with a +20 in a winning effort. What if the Wolves had traded Wiggins, kept LaVine and Dunn and drafted Collins? Butler might still be here in a starting lineup with KAT, LaVine, Dunn and Collins. Who knows. In any event, LaVine has been impressive this season.

Idk lip. Zach lavine is pretty much Dlo. When he is on the court the bulls are getting outscored by -5.4 pts per 100 button quarter of all NBA players. The bulls have been 13.4 pts worse per 100 possessions with LaVine on the court compared to off it (8th percentile).

It's also not like the bulls are winning either. Dlo and LaVine are similar players throughout their careers, good high volume offensive players and terrible defensive players with no proof that they help teams win. Dlo has 1 outlier season though

[AbeVigodaLive]

How about Zach LaVine tonight? 46 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists and 1 block with a +20 in a winning effort. What if the Wolves had traded Wiggins, kept LaVine and Dunn and drafted Collins? Butler might still be here in a starting lineup with KAT, LaVine, Dunn and Collins. Who knows. In any event, LaVine has been impressive this season.

Idk lip. Zach lavine is pretty much Dlo. When he is on the court the bulls are getting outscored by -5.4 pts per 100 button quarter of all NBA players. The bulls have been 13.4 pts worse per 100 possessions with LaVine on the court compared to off it (8th percentile).

It's also not like the bulls are winning either. Dlo and LaVine are similar players throughout their careers, good high volume offensive players and terrible defensive players with no proof that they help teams win. Dlo has 1 outlier season though

28.2 ppg
5.3 reb
5.3 apg
51.3% fg
42.5% 3fg
86.3% ft
.652 TS
2.8 Win Shares
3.7 BPM

.....

But apparently, it's MUCH better to have any of these guys on your team...

5.1 ppg
2.6 reb
3.3 apg
48.6% fg
33.3% 3fg
22% ft
.496 TS
1.1 WS
1.3 BPM

14.3 ppg
3.0 reb
5.9 apg
35.2% fg
35.9% 3fg
78% ft
.509 TS
1.3 WS
-1.5 BPM

14.4 ppg
3.1 reb
5.3 apg
45.6% fg
35.9% 3fg
.566 TS
.043 WS
-3.3 BPM

And check out Memphis

The team's NET RTG is +14.3 with D. Melton on the court. -5.8 with Ja Morant. The team is +3.6 when Morant sits... but craters with Melton on the bench... -4.9. Melton was much better last season too.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Only seven NBA players in the three-point era have averaged a minimum 25 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG, and had a TS% of 60 or higher at 25 or younger.

Jordan, LeBron, Giannis, Harden, Durant, Jokic, and LaVine... LaVine leads that group in TS% too.

But he sucks.

[bleedspeed]

Only seven NBA players in the three-point era have averaged a minimum 25 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG, and had a TS% of 60 or higher at 25 or younger.

Jordan, LeBron, Giannis, Harden, Durant, Jokic, and LaVine... LaVine leads that group in TS% too.

But he sucks.

DLO or LaVine?

[FNG]

Only seven NBA players in the three-point era have averaged a minimum 25 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG, and had a TS% of 60 or higher at 25 or younger.

Jordan, LeBron, Giannis, Harden, Durant, Jokic, and LaVine... LaVine leads that group in TS% too.

But he sucks.

Cam...you have provided statistics that have nothing to do with stopping the other team from scoring, which is am important part of the game. I think you would get no argument from anyone here that Zach LaVine is a marvelous offensive player...he belongs in that elite group of 7 if you include non-defensive measures alone.

For years girls played 6 on 6 basketball in Iowa...3 played offense only and 3 played defense only, and players never crossed the center line. Zach would have thrived with these kinds of rules. But unfortunately, the NBA requires that players play both ends of the court, and for some reason that I can't figure out, Zach is a uniquely bad defensive player. My god, this year he is dead last among SGs in DRPM...114th out of 114 SGs! And this is not a 1-year aberration, because year after year he ranks near the bottom in this measure. And I know you're not a fan of +/- and on/off numbers, but this is why a marvelous offensive player like Zach regularly does so poorly in these measures.

So let's make sure we define the nature of a discussion before we provide supporting data. If the discussion is whether Zach is a talented and productive offensive player, I challenge anyone to take the other side of that argument. Because he is. But if the discussion is whether Zach makes his teams better or not, you'll be hard pressed to support the assertion that he does. The data are not in favor of that position.

Maybe a more interesting discussion is this. If you had to choose between having a guy who was elite on offense but poor on defense, or a guy who was elite on defense but poor on offense, who would you choose? Would you take Zach LaVine or Rudy Gobert? I know which way I would go.