Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:The Heat won't trade Olynyk. The new Winslow contract takes him out of trade consideration. It's clear the Wolves won't take Waiters as part of a Butler deal. And I think it's equally clear the Heat won't take Gorgui either. So I really do think it's come down to Taj. Given those limitations, the only way the Wolves can realistically get J Richardson (with or without Bam) is to include Taj and take back either Whiteside or Tyler Johnson.

No doubt in my mind we need to deal Butler before the season starts. Teams that were interested in Butler before are no doubt less interests and certainly less inclined to give value for him now after the way he's acted out. Our best shot is still Miami. Here's the deal that I believe would get it done and be acceptable to me:

Butler and Taj to Miami
J. Richardson, Bam Adebayo, Tyler Johnson and Miami's lottery protected 2019 1st rd pk.

Note: The Wolves would actually save a couple million dollars this season. Yes, the Wolves would have to deal with longer-term salary implications. However, both Tyler and Johnson have player options on their contracts after this season. If at least one of them opts out, then the Wolves' financial situation wouldn't be that bad. And even if neither opts out, they'd both have just one more year left on their deals. If Gorgui can return to his pre-Taj form, we might only have to give up one 1st round pick to trade him and the two years left on his contract next summer. The Miami pick might be enough to get that done. I still think Riley covets Butler and he might be the only one who values Butler even more after his recent antics. And you know that Taj is definitely the sort of player Riley loves. Add Butler and Taj to Dragic, Olynyk, Whiteside, Ellington, Wade, J. Johnson, Winslow and Waiters. That would be a very formidable team in the East.

You may be right about Olynyk, but I was putting out a name who actually earns his contract unlike Waiters. But I am more certain that there is no way Riley trades both Bam and JRich for Butler. You can take that to the bank. I think JRich and a first is the framework and the filler is what we are stuck at. I prefer Olynyk and then Winslow and I'm even ok with Whiteside because when you subtract Gorgui's contract out, he will either help us or be gone in two years. I"m really ok with any filler as long as its not Waiters.

KG4Ever wrote:Given Taj's age, I doubt he has much trade value, but if he does, throw him in along with Jimmy. I think Taj is associated with Jimmy to an extent and it would be nice to move him. Plus, it might make G relevant and regain some value. It wasn't that long ago when G was considered a positive trade asset that other teams targeted. I think if he regains his pre-Taj form we certainly wouldn't have to give up two first rounders to move him.

Gorgui Dieng was an underwhelming player before Taj Gibson got here. We debated on this board about it, but the side that argued he was poor on defense and wildly overpaid absolutely nailed it on the head.

If you'd be okay with essentially trading Jimmy Butler for Josh Richardson and a low first-round pick, then I REALLY question your ability to evaluate players and put a value on them in the NBA.

That would be highway robbery for Pat Riley. Stop with this loser mentality bullshit. Butler is an All-NBA player in his prime, for crying out loud. What the fuck do people not understand about that?

Let's say the best deal you can get is the Waiters Richardson 1st round pick deal. What could Miami do to sweeten that deal? 2nd round picks? Well...we have theirs next year. From now will a top 55 protected pick in 2024 they only own 1 of their 2nd round picks. A future 1st round is a ways off so I can understand Miami being hesitant to deal a pick that's years down the road. It feels like the Wolves absolutely need more than that deal unless you have believe Richardson is gonna be an Otto porter level player and maybe you can actually squeeze some worthwhile play out of Waiters during the contract. Lots of ifs there for paying those 2 guys a total of around 23 million each of the next 2 years after this one.

Thibs isn't dealing Taj in this deal and i don't think it does much for Miami anyway. They already have a bunch of bigs. I don't think the value of trading Taj helps us get something worthwhile in this deal kinda like us getting Olynyk back helps us that much more than Waiters since the Heat likely value Olynyk and he also makes more money that Waiters. Again why do we have to be a dumping ground for Riley's mistake? We need to be compensated for that when we have by far the best asset.

monsterpile wrote:Let's say the best deal you can get is the Waiters Richardson 1st round pick deal. What could Miami do to sweeten that deal? 2nd round picks? Well...we have theirs next year. From now will a top 55 protected pick in 2024 they only own 1 of their 2nd round picks. A future 1st round is a ways off so I can understand Miami being hesitant to deal a pick that's years down the road. It feels like the Wolves absolutely need more than that deal unless you have believe Richardson is gonna be an Otto porter level player and maybe you can actually squeeze some worthwhile play out of Waiters during the contract. Lots of ifs there for paying those 2 guys a total of around 23 million each of the next 2 years after this one.

Thibs isn't dealing Taj in this deal and i don't think it does much for Miami anyway. They already have a bunch of bigs. I don't think the value of trading Taj helps us get something worthwhile in this deal kinda like us getting Olynyk back helps us that much more than Waiters since the Heat likely value Olynyk and he also makes more money that Waiters. Again why do we have to be a dumping ground for Riley's mistake? We need to be compensated for that when we have by far the best asset.

If that's all Miami is offering, which in the end it won't be, then I politely tell Pat Riley to go fuck himself. Not personal, just business.

monsterpile wrote:Let's say the best deal you can get is the Waiters Richardson 1st round pick deal. What could Miami do to sweeten that deal? 2nd round picks? Well...we have theirs next year. From now will a top 55 protected pick in 2024 they only own 1 of their 2nd round picks. A future 1st round is a ways off so I can understand Miami being hesitant to deal a pick that's years down the road. It feels like the Wolves absolutely need more than that deal unless you have believe Richardson is gonna be an Otto porter level player and maybe you can actually squeeze some worthwhile play out of Waiters during the contract. Lots of ifs there for paying those 2 guys a total of around 23 million each of the next 2 years after this one.

Thibs isn't dealing Taj in this deal and i don't think it does much for Miami anyway. They already have a bunch of bigs. I don't think the value of trading Taj helps us get something worthwhile in this deal kinda like us getting Olynyk back helps us that much more than Waiters since the Heat likely value Olynyk and he also makes more money that Waiters. Again why do we have to be a dumping ground for Riley's mistake? We need to be compensated for that when we have by far the best asset.

Man the rumored offers have been awful! What if we take the basic concept of the last trade we saw and do something like this.
Minnesota in Richardson WCS, Miami unprotected 2019 pick
Miami in Butler
Sacramento in Waiters, Miami 2023 1st a 2nd from us.
We get an additional expiring asset in WCS who also played with KAT at Kentucky and we wouldn't have to take on that terrible Waiters contract. Not great but better.

rapsuperstar31 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Let's say the best deal you can get is the Waiters Richardson 1st round pick deal. What could Miami do to sweeten that deal? 2nd round picks? Well...we have theirs next year. From now will a top 55 protected pick in 2024 they only own 1 of their 2nd round picks. A future 1st round is a ways off so I can understand Miami being hesitant to deal a pick that's years down the road. It feels like the Wolves absolutely need more than that deal unless you have believe Richardson is gonna be an Otto porter level player and maybe you can actually squeeze some worthwhile play out of Waiters during the contract. Lots of ifs there for paying those 2 guys a total of around 23 million each of the next 2 years after this one.

Thibs isn't dealing Taj in this deal and i don't think it does much for Miami anyway. They already have a bunch of bigs. I don't think the value of trading Taj helps us get something worthwhile in this deal kinda like us getting Olynyk back helps us that much more than Waiters since the Heat likely value Olynyk and he also makes more money that Waiters. Again why do we have to be a dumping ground for Riley's mistake? We need to be compensated for that when we have by far the best asset.

Man the rumored offers have been awful! What if we take the basic concept of the last trade we saw and do something like this.
Minnesota in Richardson WCS, Miami unprotected 2019 pick
Miami in Butler
Sacramento in Waiters, Miami 2023 1st a 2nd from us.
We get an additional expiring asset in WCS who also played with KAT at Kentucky and we wouldn't have to take on that terrible Waiters contract. Not great but better.

Not great, not good, not appropriate value, not fair, not acceptable -- but I guess it's better, sure.

I wouldn't even waste my time with the Heat unless Richardson and Adebayo are included, and I'm really not even that thrilled about them either.

Camden wrote:

rapsuperstar31 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Let's say the best deal you can get is the Waiters Richardson 1st round pick deal. What could Miami do to sweeten that deal? 2nd round picks? Well...we have theirs next year. From now will a top 55 protected pick in 2024 they only own 1 of their 2nd round picks. A future 1st round is a ways off so I can understand Miami being hesitant to deal a pick that's years down the road. It feels like the Wolves absolutely need more than that deal unless you have believe Richardson is gonna be an Otto porter level player and maybe you can actually squeeze some worthwhile play out of Waiters during the contract. Lots of ifs there for paying those 2 guys a total of around 23 million each of the next 2 years after this one.

Thibs isn't dealing Taj in this deal and i don't think it does much for Miami anyway. They already have a bunch of bigs. I don't think the value of trading Taj helps us get something worthwhile in this deal kinda like us getting Olynyk back helps us that much more than Waiters since the Heat likely value Olynyk and he also makes more money that Waiters. Again why do we have to be a dumping ground for Riley's mistake? We need to be compensated for that when we have by far the best asset.

Man the rumored offers have been awful! What if we take the basic concept of the last trade we saw and do something like this.
Minnesota in Richardson WCS, Miami unprotected 2019 pick
Miami in Butler
Sacramento in Waiters, Miami 2023 1st a 2nd from us.
We get an additional expiring asset in WCS who also played with KAT at Kentucky and we wouldn't have to take on that terrible Waiters contract. Not great but better.

Not great, not good, not appropriate value, not fair, not acceptable -- but I guess it's better, sure.

I wouldn't even waste my time with the Heat unless Richardson and Adebayo are included, and I'm really not even that thrilled about them either.

I agree its not good, but its looking more and more likely we are not going to get a good offer. The season starts in a few days the best offers should have come in by now, so a team could have worked Jimmy into their systems. At this point our best bet might be waiting until the trade deadline (which could be a toxic atmosphere that completely ruins KAT and or Wiggins) and hoping a team has an injury or the Lakers decide to jump in after their players can be traded in December. The frustrating thing is, had Jimmy made his request this vocal in June we could have traded him to Memphis for the 4th pick and change, I bet Miami would have been more inclined to trade both Bam and Richardson. A good offer would have been there in June.

The question Cam is what do you do with the cap space since it appears none of the trade offers for Butler interest you. What if nothing ever materializes and he simply leaves? Can the cap space he leaves behind get us something better than Richardson and Adebayo, for example? That's what you are betting on.

Camden wrote:If you'd be okay with essentially trading Jimmy Butler for Josh Richardson and a low first-round pick, then I REALLY question your ability to evaluate players and put a value on them in the NBA.

That would be highway robbery for Pat Riley. Stop with this loser mentality bullshit. Butler is an All-NBA player in his prime, for crying out loud. What the fuck do people not understand about that?

Well Cam, as you know I wouldn't consider Richardson and a low 1st rd pk sufficient for Butler. I'd have to get Adebayo as part of the package for me to go along with it. Unfortunately, we can't get a salary match without including other assets. I continue to believe Miami would be willing to give up both Richardson and Bam for Butler, but we have to find a deal that would match salaries and still be financially palatable for the Wolves. I think the deal I suggested would work, but I could be wrong about Riley's willingness to do it.

My question to you is whether you (not Thibs) would do the deal I've suggested, i.e., Butler and Taj for Richardson, Bam, Tyler Johnson and Miami's lottery-protected 2019 1st rd pk? Also, do you believe Pat Riley would do that deal?

I'm not sure who on this board is OK with trading Butler straight up for Richardson and a low 1st rd pk. I think a few folks believe that's the best we can get in the market, which is different than being OK with it. And that's the point. It doesn't matter how good Butler is or how valuable any of us think he is. The only thing that matters for trade purposes is what his market value is -- i.e., what teams are willing to give up for him now under the circumstances. Butler's market value isn't just a function of how good he is on the court. It's also a function of his durability and ability to stay on the court as well as his personality and impact on a team's chemistry. More than anything, his value depends on the broader context. The fact that Butler has demanded a trade just before the season, his widely-known toxic relationship with key teammates and the fact that he becomes a FA next summer are all key factors that would tend to drive his market value lower than it might otherwise be. That's the reality that really needs to be understood.

I don't think my suggested trade would get us full value equivalent to Butler as a player. But I think it would reflect fair MARKET VALUE given what the market for Butler is today. And honestly, I could be overrating Butler's market value. I happen to believe that Pat Riley would be willing to pay more than any other team for Butler. Hence, I think Miami is willing to pay a slight premium for Butler above what other teams would pay. That's why I think Miami is our best trading partner. If you don't like what we can ultimately get from Miami, I'm pretty sure you'd being even more critical of the best deal we could get from any other team.