Around the league thread

[kekgeek]

Only seven NBA players in the three-point era have averaged a minimum 25 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG, and had a TS% of 60 or higher at 25 or younger.

Jordan, LeBron, Giannis, Harden, Durant, Jokic, and LaVine... LaVine leads that group in TS% too.

But he sucks.

I want to say I don't think lavine sucks. I'm just curious how much value he brings to the team when it comes to winning. Lavine has never won more then 35 games. I would be curious to see how he would be if he was the 2nd or 3rd option. Fair or unfair he has been a good stats bad team guy. I like lavine, I just don't know his ultimate value (I do wish Glen didn't get involved and the Wolves traded Wiggins instead of lavine)

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

So let's make sure we define the nature of a discussion before we provide supporting data. If the discussion is whether Zach is a talented and productive offensive player, I challenge anyone to take the other side of that argument. Because he is. But if the discussion is whether Zach makes his teams better or not, you'll be hard pressed to support the assertion that he does. The data are not in favor of that position.

Slow your roll, FNG. The data you choose to value more than others suggests that position. But like I've been telling you -- for almost as long as your entire presence here -- there is much more to the conversation than plus-minus and on/off metrics. Sorry to break it to you, but those are not the be-all and end-all statistics. They're just the ones you choose to make conclusions from. I can easily cherry-pick VORP, BPM, WS, PER, etc. and argue that Zach LaVine is a very valuable NBA player and his team would be much worse without him as he's much better than replacement level according to any of the above metrics. I could talk about the historical season he's having, how the NBA has had many elite offensive players and none of them produced what he's currently producing. But you would completely disregard and ignore my entire argument because none of it would include "plus-minus" numbers. And that's just how you view the game -- through the scope of a flawed statistic in the box score that doesn't account for context. So I'll spare both you and myself the time from making that argument and we'll continue the trend of agreeing to disagree. But just know that the game of basketball is way more complex than you're making it out to be.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Only seven NBA players in the three-point era have averaged a minimum 25 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG, and had a TS% of 60 or higher at 25 or younger.

Jordan, LeBron, Giannis, Harden, Durant, Jokic, and LaVine... LaVine leads that group in TS% too.

But he sucks.

I want to say I don't think LaVine sucks. I'm just curious how much value he brings to the team when it comes to winning. LaVine has never won more then 35 games. I would be curious to see how he would be if he was the 2nd or 3rd option. Fair or unfair he has been a good stats bad team guy. I like LaVine, I just don't know his ultimate value (I do wish Glen didn't get involved and the Wolves traded Wiggins instead of LaVine).

That's a fair question, kek. And one that we could ask about many other players in the league -- not just volume scorers that aren't presented well in a couple of noisy statistics. We could likely group in many more if we expanded our filters. But perhaps it's actually a matter of Zach LaVine's teams didn't win games. Would any of us argue that the Chicago Bulls should be winning more than they are based on the talent on their roster? What if we shifted our focus to Bradley Beal with the Washington Wizards or our own Karl-Anthony Towns with the Minnesota Timberwolves? What about Devin Booker with the Phoenix Suns prior to this year? These are guys that haven't been able to win consistently despite actually performing well in plus-minus and on/off metrics. Improve the pieces around them, however, and it's weird how guys are suddenly winning games. We saw it with Beal earlier in his career when the Wizards were a playoff team. We saw it with Towns when Jimmy Butler, Taj Gibson, and Jeff Teague were acquired. And we're seeing it now with Booker and the Suns currently sitting at 15-9, good enough for fourth in the Western Conference after making significant additions in the off-season.

And even though nobody wants to acknowledge it, D'Angelo Russell's another one that's been on shit rosters his entire career and the one time he wasn't -- he was a significant player on that team leading them to the playoffs.

One player just doesn't propel a team to wins anymore unless your name is LeBron James, and even he couldn't do it with the 2018-19 Lakers (37-45).

[Lipoli390]

Haliburton continues to establish himself as a legitimate ROY candidate. He doesn't have the flash or get the media coverage of Ball or even Edwards, but he continues to put up impressive numbers game after game. Last night he had 22 points on 9-14 FG shooting and 3-6 three-point shooting. He had 4 rebounds, 4 assists and 2 steals as well.

You might recall reports that the Wolves were shopping Culver to Atlanta in some sort of package for the 5th pick in order to get Haliburton. As it turns out, Haliburton fell all the way down to #12. I have to believe there was a team in the top 11, if not the Kings at #12, who would have swapped their pick for Culver

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

The NBA's Most Improved Player for the 2020-21 season and a legitimate Eastern Conference All-Star candidate just had another huge game. Julius Randle lit up the Atlanta Hawks for 44 points (14-22 FG, 7-13 3P, 9-12 FT), nine rebounds, and five assists en route to their 14th win. The Knicks are just one game under .500 and currently own the sixth seed in the East while being just 0.5 games back of the Pacers for the fourth seed. That's truly a remarkable storyline for the season and I'm rooting for them. I never thought I would say that about the Knicks.

[kekgeek]

The NBA's Most Improved Player for the 2020-21 season and a legitimate Eastern Conference All-Star candidate just had another huge game. Julius Randle lit up the Atlanta Hawks for 44 points (14-22 FG, 7-13 3P, 9-12 FT), nine rebounds, and five assists en route to their 14th win. The Knicks are just one game under .500 and currently own the sixth seed in the East while being just 0.5 games back of the Pacers for the fourth seed. That's truly a remarkable storyline for the season and I'm rooting for them. I never thought I would say that about the Knicks.

I don't know how that is possible, I heard for years they have the worst coach of all time.

Love him or hate him, Thibs finds ways to win games

[Lipoli390]

The NBA's Most Improved Player for the 2020-21 season and a legitimate Eastern Conference All-Star candidate just had another huge game. Julius Randle lit up the Atlanta Hawks for 44 points (14-22 FG, 7-13 3P, 9-12 FT), nine rebounds, and five assists en route to their 14th win. The Knicks are just one game under .500 and currently own the sixth seed in the East while being just 0.5 games back of the Pacers for the fourth seed. That's truly a remarkable storyline for the season and I'm rooting for them. I never thought I would say that about the Knicks.

I don't know how that is possible, I heard for years they have the worst coach of all time.

Love him or hate him, Thibs finds ways to win games

Thibs didn't win many games his first season here. He won the next season with Jimmy Butler. Don't get me wrong, he's a solid head coach, but I wouldn't get too carried away. If Thibs the PBO had traded Wiggins instead of LaVine and, drafted Murray instead of Dunn and Collins instead of Patton, he would probably still be the Wolves head coach. The Knicks have some talent in Randle, Robinson, Barrett, Quickly and now Rose. But I have to admit that Thibs seems to be getting the most out of the guys he has and that's the mark of a good head coach.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

The NBA's Most Improved Player for the 2020-21 season and a legitimate Eastern Conference All-Star candidate just had another huge game. Julius Randle lit up the Atlanta Hawks for 44 points (14-22 FG, 7-13 3P, 9-12 FT), nine rebounds, and five assists en route to their 14th win. The Knicks are just one game under .500 and currently own the sixth seed in the East while being just 0.5 games back of the Pacers for the fourth seed. That's truly a remarkable storyline for the season and I'm rooting for them. I never thought I would say that about the Knicks.

I don't know how that is possible. I heard for years they have the worst coach of all time.

Love him or hate him, Thibs finds ways to win games.

Bingo. There's a reason the guy has won 58.4-percent of the 627 games he's coached. His style works. His preparation works. His adjustments work. It can be ugly. It can be difficult to watch at times. He can rub some people the wrong way. But the guy wins. Period.

[thedoper]

The NBA's Most Improved Player for the 2020-21 season and a legitimate Eastern Conference All-Star candidate just had another huge game. Julius Randle lit up the Atlanta Hawks for 44 points (14-22 FG, 7-13 3P, 9-12 FT), nine rebounds, and five assists en route to their 14th win. The Knicks are just one game under .500 and currently own the sixth seed in the East while being just 0.5 games back of the Pacers for the fourth seed. That's truly a remarkable storyline for the season and I'm rooting for them. I never thought I would say that about the Knicks.

I don't know how that is possible. I heard for years they have the worst coach of all time.

Love him or hate him, Thibs finds ways to win games.

Bingo. There's a reason the guy has won 58.4-percent of the 627 games he's coached. His style works. His preparation works. His adjustments work. It can be ugly. It can be difficult to watch at times. He can rub some people the wrong way. But the guy wins. Period.

Yeah but he swears.

[kekgeek]

The NBA's Most Improved Player for the 2020-21 season and a legitimate Eastern Conference All-Star candidate just had another huge game. Julius Randle lit up the Atlanta Hawks for 44 points (14-22 FG, 7-13 3P, 9-12 FT), nine rebounds, and five assists en route to their 14th win. The Knicks are just one game under .500 and currently own the sixth seed in the East while being just 0.5 games back of the Pacers for the fourth seed. That's truly a remarkable storyline for the season and I'm rooting for them. I never thought I would say that about the Knicks.

I don't know how that is possible, I heard for years they have the worst coach of all time.

Love him or hate him, Thibs finds ways to win games

Thibs didn't win many games his first season here. He won the next season with Jimmy Butler. Don't get me wrong, he's a solid head coach, but I wouldn't get too carried away. If Thibs the PBO had traded Wiggins instead of LaVine and, drafted Murray instead of Dunn and Collins instead of Patton, he would probably still be the Wolves head coach. The Knicks have some talent in Randle, Robinson, Barrett, Quickly and now Rose. But I have to admit that Thibs seems to be getting the most out of the guys he has and that's the mark of a good head coach.

Some of it is we are taking a victory lap. I understand why Thibs was fired, he is a control freak asshole. I will always at least appreciate Thibs in the sense that he always tried to win, not a lot of this tanking BS the Wolves are used to. We heard even after a 48 win season people wanted thibs fired. I just liked winning.

I also think some of it is we went from Thibs (I understand why he was fired) to Ryan Saunders. It was the same old county club BS. It's ok though because Ryan is a good guy (it gets old). I'm just sick of losing. Just don't get why the Wolves had to go from Thibs to Ryan instead of line Thibs to Atkinson.