Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:Monster - Check out these Hartenstein highlights from last season. He has some nice skills. And he's really big. He's tall, but not particularly long. Has a 7'2.25 wingspan and a 9'1 standing reach - both longer measurements than Vanderbilt and good for a PF but not particularly long for a center. What makes him really big is his wide body at 250 pounds. Yet, he's fluid and pretty quick. He's 23 years old and I think he'd be a great free agent signing for the Wolves. The rap on him is that he's kind of a punk. Reportedly, he blames teammates, whines, sulks and has bad body language when things aren't going well. Nevertheless, he's young, talented and importantly, he has nice size that the Wolves really need.

https://youtu.be/hr8nnI75vEI?list=TLGGXWvZCH-51a8xODA4MjAyMQ

I had not heard about the attitude problems. That give me a lot of pause. Harry Giles people always say he has all this potential...I'm not sure what that is exactly but maybe worth looking into I guess.

I also think there are some FA that aren't on lists because they didn't finish the season with a team etc that COULD be worth adding. I'm not advocating for either guy but Meyers Leonard and Vonleh are 2 guys not on the FA lists and I think there might be some other players like that who could be interesting. Ok just looked on realgm. Marquis Chriss and Bruno Caboclo are some other guys. What about John Henson for a vet? Justin Patton is available!!!! Lol

Honestly, outside of Paul Millsap primarily for his veteran presence and winning pedigree and Lauri Markkanen for his size and perimeter shooting, there's just not a four in the free agent pool that I think is actually better than Jarred Vanderbilt. He does a lot of the dirty work, hustle plays that this team needs more of. And to his credit, he's a very good rebounder and a plus defender. The Wolves could actually do much worse than him. I don't think Minnesota should overpay for what he's worth, but if they're not making a trade for anyone noticeably better, or dumping salary to take on a Markkanen, or persuading the veteran to join a young team over a contender, they should just lock Vando down to a multi-year deal and prepare for the season. The Harry Giles, Isaiah Hartenstein, Marquese Chriss type projects don't move the needle for me. I think Vando could be a 10/8/1.5/1.0 player or better next year. He's just incredibly active.

Camden wrote:Honestly, outside of Paul Millsap primarily for his veteran presence and winning pedigree and Lauri Markkanen for his size and perimeter shooting, there's just not a four in the free agent pool that I think is actually better than Jarred Vanderbilt. He does a lot of the dirty work, hustle plays that this team needs more of. And to his credit, he's a very good rebounder and a plus defender. The Wolves could actually do much worse than him. I don't think Minnesota should overpay for what he's worth, but if they're not making a trade for anyone noticeably better, or dumping salary to take on a Markkanen, or persuading the veteran to join a young team over a contender, they should just lock Vando down to a multi-year deal and prepare for the season. The Harry Giles, Isaiah Hartenstein, Marquese Chriss type projects don't move the needle for me. I think Vando could be a 10/8/1.5/1.0 player or better next year. He's just incredibly active.

Don't disagree with you. But I think we need Vando AND [insert another big name here]. I think we need another big with some size and strength that can do battle in the paint and hold his ground. Vando is great as a chaotic, switching defender. But if an opposing big puts his butt or shoulder into him, he is pretty helpless. And we can't have KAT always take these assignments on, as he struggles as well.

How much improvement can we expect from Vanderbilt? Many energy guys are just that because they lack other elite skills and they have a desire to "make it" any way they can. They're fun to have around. And often a necessity.

So let's say Vanderbilt is really stuck on $5M or so for multiple seasons. That's not a lot by NBA standards. But if it doesn't offer much upside, so is a $15M investment worth it? I dunno. I guess it depends on the rest of the roster each season, right?

At what price point do the Wolves say "Meh, we can find that very specific type of player elsewhere for less." Case in point, Kenneth Faried is available right now. He's 31. Does he have enough to be that energy guy to get back in the league?

The last time we saw him he was averaging 13/8 for an semi-extended run in the rotation for a 53-win Rockets team in 2019. Since he's been out of the league... could he be had for the vet minimum?

AbeVigodaLive wrote:How much improvement can we expect from Vanderbilt? Many energy guys are just that because they lack other elite skills and they have a desire to "make it" any way they can. They're fun to have around. And often a necessity.

So let's say Vanderbilt is really stuck on $5M or so for multiple seasons. That's not a lot by NBA standards. But if it doesn't offer much upside, so is a $15M investment worth it? I dunno. I guess it depends on the rest of the roster each season, right?

At what price point do the Wolves say "Meh, we can find that very specific type of player elsewhere for less." Case in point, Kenneth Faried is available right now. He's 31. Does he have enough to be that energy guy to get back in the league?

The last time we saw him he was averaging 13/8 for an semi-extended run in the rotation for a 53-win Rockets team in 2019. Since he's been out of the league... could he be had for the vet minimum?

Kenneth Faried is out of the league because he can't defend anybody. He's not agile enough to stay with fours and he's not big or strong enough to hang with fives. That's not really a good comparison for Jarred Vanderbilt because he's able to slide with those quicker fours and even some threes.

And Vando hasn't shown to be worth that five-million annual salary yet. The sample size just isn't big enough for him and his agent to demand that. Could he be worth that? I'd say sure. If all goes right, he could be worth what Nerlens Noel got this off-season despite not being the rim-protector Noel obviously is (I think Vando defends the perimeter better). Noel got three-years, $32-million from the Knicks. If you sign Vando to a three-year, $12.3-million deal, then you're potentially looking at a value contract with medium-high upside.

I don't think there's a single vet minimum guy that could provide what Vando does.

If you look at our lineup data last season, Vando's name is on nearly all of the top line-up combinations that played meaningful minutes. Being able to rebound and defend has a lot of value on this roster! There is also the potential that he evolves into a facilitator role on offense, as he has shown potential as a playmaker and passer as a prospect. That to me is where his value could really expand (not suggesting he inevitably grows into that kind of player). I doubt he ever becomes a reliable shot maker. That ship has likely sailed at this point.

Q12543 wrote:If you look at our lineup data last season, Vando's name is on nearly all of the top line-up combinations that played meaningful minutes. Being able to rebound and defend has a lot of value on this roster! There is also the potential that he evolves into a facilitator role on offense, as he has shown potential as a playmaker and passer as a prospect. That to me is where his value could really expand (not suggesting he inevitably grows into that kind of player). I doubt he ever becomes a reliable shot maker. That ship has likely sailed at this point.

Q - I agree with the points Cam made about Vanderbilt and his value, including potential value. I'm glad you mentioned Vanderbilt's rebounding and defense. I was going to mention those in response to Abe's characterization of Vandy as just an "energy guy." Yes, he's an energy guy. But rebounding and defense are skills. I'm also glad you mentioned Vanderbilt's passing and potential as a playmaker. He has shown some passing skills that I could see developing over time. So there are skills there along with his high motor that give him present value and potentially more future value.

Is there a price too high to pay for him? Sure. I'm not sure what that price is. I'd be very comfortable with the 3 year, $12.3M deal Cam suggested. That would be a great value for the Wolves in my view. I'd also be comfortable with 3 years, $15M. The Wolves have a lot of leverage because he's obligated to sign for one year at the qualifying offer and I just don't see another NBA team swooping in with an offer greater than $15M for 3 years. Honestly, I'd be surprised if any team offers more than $4M per year.

The question, as I see it, is how much it will cost to sign another big to fill our one remaining roster spot. Can we afford to sign Vanderbilt and another big without exceeding the luxury tax threshold? My two choices for free agent bigs at this point are Millsap and Hartenstein. I like Millsap's veteran savvy, but I like Hartenstein's size and upside. I'm on the fence in deciding between the two. In my mind, it might come down to which one would cost the least. I just hope that Rosas has zeroed in on those two as well. What I don't want is Rosas missing the opportunity to sign one of those two bigs because of his desire to preserve flexibility for his big-game pursuit of Simmons.

I don't foresee either team needing to make this trade, but I thought it was at least interesting at first glance. And it would have to be a trade deadline move for both rosters.

Lakers: Talen Horton-Tucker, Kendrick Nunn

Wolves: Malik Beasley, 2022 second-round pick

From Minnesota's perspective, I think you would only make this trade if Beasley is unhappy with his role as the sixth man, or if the team simply isn't winning at or near half of their games played. At that point, a shuffling of pieces would be warranted and he's the most likely to get moved. Horton-Tucker is a very nice young role player and Nunn is arguably a starting-level point guard who's still just 26.

From Los Angeles' perspective, I think they would love to get Beasley on their roster. I think adding volume shooters from three is always a good idea on a team led by LeBron James. Beasley would also likely start on that team right now. They'd probably try their hardest to not include Horton-Tucker, but he's someone I think they'd reluctantly give up to to get Beasley.

Darren Wolfson: Bolmaro has made it to town. #Timberwolves 12 mins ago - via Twitter DWolfsonKSTP

The franchise savior has arrived in the Twin Cities.

Camden0916 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:How much improvement can we expect from Vanderbilt? Many energy guys are just that because they lack other elite skills and they have a desire to "make it" any way they can. They're fun to have around. And often a necessity.

So let's say Vanderbilt is really stuck on $5M or so for multiple seasons. That's not a lot by NBA standards. But if it doesn't offer much upside, so is a $15M investment worth it? I dunno. I guess it depends on the rest of the roster each season, right?

At what price point do the Wolves say "Meh, we can find that very specific type of player elsewhere for less." Case in point, Kenneth Faried is available right now. He's 31. Does he have enough to be that energy guy to get back in the league?

The last time we saw him he was averaging 13/8 for an semi-extended run in the rotation for a 53-win Rockets team in 2019. Since he's been out of the league... could he be had for the vet minimum?

Kenneth Faried is out of the league because he can't defend anybody. He's not agile enough to stay with fours and he's not big or strong enough to hang with fives. That's not really a good comparison for Jarred Vanderbilt because he's able to slide with those quicker fours and even some threes.

And Vando hasn't shown to be worth that five-million annual salary yet. The sample size just isn't big enough for him and his agent to demand that. Could he be worth that? I'd say sure. If all goes right, he could be worth what Nerlens Noel got this off-season despite not being the rim-protector Noel obviously is (I think Vando defends the perimeter better). Noel got three-years, $32-million from the Knicks. If you sign Vando to a three-year, $12.3-million deal, then you're potentially looking at a value contract with medium-high upside.

I don't think there's a single vet minimum guy that could provide what Vando does.

Abe I watched Fariid in person in SL and before that I would have agreed with your line of thinking. If you didn't know who he was he didn't stand out whatsoever from the other SL type guys. There were guards getting rebounds from him. He isn't good anymore and I believe his defense the last few years was suspect. If Vanderbilt could become what Fariid was for years then yes that's a really valuable guy. It was one SL game but based on what I saw Fariid isn't that guy anymore.