Minnesota Sports Forum

Read this on RealGm in the Wolves section. Thought it was a good comment:

"Individual defense is notoriously hard to quantify, but I'll go w/ def plays per foul b/c the names in the top 10 sound right: J Butler, Anthony Davis, Duncan, Lebron, Kawhi, Danny Green, Josh Smith, Ibaka, Deandre Jordan, Thabo. Spurs had 5 in the top 100 and obviously 3 in the top 6.

Wolves had 4 in the top 100: Rubio (26), Brewer (35), Cunningham (46), and....Kevin Love (76). 2 are gone, but we should expect (hope) Wiggins to make that list, and hopefully in the top half. Thad Young? A cool 22nd overall and higher than anybody on the Wolves last year."

Camden0916 wrote:Read this on RealGm in the Wolves section. Thought it was a good comment:

"Individual defense is notoriously hard to quantify, but I'll go w/ def plays per foul b/c the names in the top 10 sound right: J Butler, Anthony Davis, Duncan, Lebron, Kawhi, Danny Green, Josh Smith, Ibaka, Deandre Jordan, Thabo. Spurs had 5 in the top 100 and obviously 3 in the top 6.

Wolves had 4 in the top 100: Rubio (26), Brewer (35), Cunningham (46), and....Kevin Love (76). 2 are gone, but we should expect (hope) Wiggins to make that list, and hopefully in the top half. Thad Young? A cool 22nd overall and higher than anybody on the Wolves last year."

That's an interesting find Cam. IMO over the years there are not a great deal of starting PFs in the league that are good to great defenders. A lot of the time the scoring PFs (17+ ppg) lack in that area. I think the only way to really truely rank defensive players would be dedicated video study and charting until someone does that we are left with what we have availiable to us to try and make our best assestment.

Sidenote: I think that's why Wiggins is thought of so highly is that his defensive potential for a wing is almost limitless. You don't usually get star talent players. At that age that have that aspect of their game.

Back to Thad. I haven't watched him a lot but from what I gather from things I have read I think his defense is being underrated by the non-Thad believers (its a religion lol jk). How much? Idk but I do think any player that gets over 2 steals a game has to be doing something right and his career numbers say he is very good at that aspect and the last 2 years averaging around 2 steals a game is not a flukey thing. If he can be even around average on defense against PFs I could probably live with that.

The one thing not being taken into account with Thad's defense is he is now going to have to go up against the stacked West when it comes to PF's. Who was the best true PF in the East? Bosh? Millsap? He essentially had two tough covers in Lebron and Melo and they are small ball 4's. He's now going to be going up against the juggernaut of Griffin, Aldridge, Dirk, Randolph, Anthony Davis, Ibaka and some Duncan. That is a crazy difference in size and is a different game to play defensively. He's much better suited to guard the Melo's and Lebron's than the Randolph's and Dirk's because he is built like a small ball 4, not a true big 4 like most of the West utilizes. He'll get his 2 steals a game and also get his butt handed to him from the sheer size difference he is now going to have to guard. We'll have to see, but the West is a different beast than the East so who really knows how he's going to translate with a significant increase in competition.

Thaddeus Young vs PFs of the West

T.Young: 19 G (12-7 W/L), 30 MPG, 13.9 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 1.7 APG, 1.4 SPG, .489% FG
D.Lee: 19 G (7-12 W/L), 34 MPG, 15.8 PPG, 10.9 RPG, 2.2 APG, 0.7 SPG, .524% FG
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=leeda02&p2=youngth01

T.Young: 13 G (7-6 W/L), 28.2 MPG, 13.2 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 1.6 APG, 1.3 SPG, .575% FG
L.Aldridge: 13 G (6-7 W/L), 38.3 MPG, 20.9 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 3.2 APG, 0.6 SPG, .487% FG
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=aldrila01&p2=youngth01

T.Young: 6 G (2-4 W/L), 24.7 MPG, 12 PPG, 7.2 RPG, 1.3 APG, 0.3 SPG, .458% FG
B.Griffin: 6 G (4-2 W/L), 34.3 MPG, 18.2 PPG, 10.8 RPG, 3.8 APG, 0.8 SPG, .464% FG
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=youngth01&p2=griffbl01

T.Young: 12 G (5-7 W/L), 26 MPG, 13.7 PPG, 4.6 RPG, 0.9 APG, 1.7 SPG, .542% FG
Z.Randolph: 12 G (7-5 W/L), 30.2 MPG, 13.3 PPG, 8.3 RPG, 2.6 APG, 1.2 SPG, .429% FG
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=youngth01&p2=randoza01

T.Young: 8 G (0-8 W/L), 30.9 MPG, 13.3 PPG, 6.9 RPG, 1.6 APG, 1.8 SPG, .449% FG
S.Ibaka: 8 G (8-0 W/L), 27.9 MPG, 13 PPG, 7.4 RPG, 0.9 APG, 0.9 SPG, 2.1 BPG, .625% FG
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=youngth01&p2=ibakase01

T.Young: 9 G (4-5 W/L), 31.6 MPG, 16.9 PPG, 4.1 RPG, 1.4 APG, 1.9 SPG, .569% FG
K.Love: 9 G (5-4 W/L), 30.3 MPG, 16.2 PPG, 11.3 RPG, 2.6 APG, 0.8 SPG, .424% FG
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=youngth01&p2=loveke01

T.Young: 11 G (2-9 W/L), 29.1 MPG, 14.2 PPG, 6 RPG, 1.7 APG, 1.5 SPG, .478% FG
D.Nowitzki: 11 G (9-2 W/L), 36.7 MPG, 22.3 PPG, 7.7 RPG, 3.5 APG, 1.1 SPG, .431% FG
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=youngth01&p2=nowitdi01

T.Young: 4 G (2-2 W/L), 35.5 MPG, 15.5 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 1.5 APG, 2 SPG, .475% FG
K.Faried: 4 G (2-2 W/L), 20 MPG, 8 PPG, 6.5 RPG, 0.5 APG, 0.5 SPG, .500% FG
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=youngth01&p2=farieke01

T.Young: 3 G (0-3 W/L), 33.3 MPG, 12.7 PPG, 7.7 RPG, 2.7 APG, 1.3 SPG, .386% FG
A.Davis: 3 G (3-0 W/L), 29.3 MPG, 15 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 2.0 APG, 2.0 SPG, 5.0 BPG, .556% FG
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=youngth01&p2=davisan02

(After typing Young vs Davis, I realized that Davis was likely playing center instead of power forward so there likely wasn't too much head-to-head here.)

This post took much longer to do than I initially anticipated, but I hope it gives you an idea of how Young competes against power forwards from the West. For some of the older guys (Lee, Aldridge, Randolph, Nowitzki), they definitely took advantage of Young when he was younger and smaller, but when looking at their more recent head-to-heads, they're closer than their averages make it appear.

Nobody said Young was a for sure All-Star talent, and these are some of the best power forwards in the NBA. I did notice that some of them had poor efficiency (compared to their regular percentages) when matching up with Young. See: Griffin, Randolph, Love, Nowitzki. Young also got out-rebounded by everyone I compared him to, though I will remind you again how elite all but one (Faried) of these guys are.

Young holds his own for the most part and he's been on shitty teams for basically all of his career. I think he'll greatly benefit from playing with Rubio, Martin (?) and Pekovic as well as the coaching from Flip Saunders. Everyone knows by now what I think, but I thought this post would save some of you some time.

LST called Thad Young a "well below average" defender. I don't agree with this assessment at all. I did some digging on the net (as I unfortunately have not seen him play too much) and the preponderance of viewpoints was that Thad was a good or very good defender. He certainly has some great hops, reach and from all accounts, a good motor. I think he certainly is disruptive. I think the only significant flaw is he is a bit undersized against PFs. Young is one of the top ball hawks in the league. He's also had some impressive plus minus stats (excluding last year where the mandate was to tank) in the prior two years. (2012-13:http://www.82games.com/1213/1213PHI.HTM and 2011-12: http://origin.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22011&split=9&team=76ers

LST says Thad is a "well below average defender." Here's a different take on Thad's defense:

"Thanks to his uber-athleticism, Thaddeus Young is the best pick-and-roll defender on the 76ers by an enormous margin. (This comes despite the amount of time he, at a generously listed 6'8" 230 pounds, spends banging with much bigger-bodied 4s.) According to mySynergySports, Young allowed the roll man on pick-and-rolls only a 28.8 field goal percentage in 2012-13. While tremendous, this wasn't entirely out of line with his career norms. P&R roll men shot 39 percent against him in 2011-12 and 44.4 percent in 2010-11.

And let's not miss the forest for the trees: Young is dominant in other aspects of D as well. According to mySynergySports, opponents have shot 40.6, 40.2, and 41.9 percent against him in the three seasons preceding 2013-14. This year--on a 76ers team that's allowing opponents a league-high 109.8 points per game--Young's men have a field goal percentage of just 38.3 percent."

http://www.gotbuckets.com/2013/11/21/apm-all-star-thad-young-or-youth-is-wasted-on-the-young-young-is-wasted-on-the-sixers/

From the Houston Rockets board who think Thad is a good defender.

"1) Why does Thaddeus Young have a reputation for being a good defender? Is he even a good defender?

Thad Young has had a DRtg (the lower the better) of 100 and 103 the past 2 years. Josh Smith has a career average of 103, Shane Battier has an avg of 105, and Bruce Bowen's average is 102. As you can see, 101.5 average in the past 2 years is ELITE level defense.

2) Why add Young if you already T. Jones who is much cheaper? Why are you replacing our potential all-star PF?!?

The difference between Young and Jones is that Young is an excellent PERIMETER DEFENDER. He can guard SGs and SFs, while Jones is better used against bigger PFs. You can play Young as a SF with Jones while Harden/Parsons is on the bench, or play Young with Harden/Parsons as a PF.

Thad Young provides flexibility as a SF/PF. He can guard many positions and is not merely JUST a PF like Anderson/Millsap/Jones. They really don't have anyone that has the skillset of Young. "

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=247949

This is some great discussion on Thad and it. Really shows the passion of the Wolves fans on this board debating about Thad Young. :) He is also taking over the Love Wiggins thread!

I will mention that I think we are sort of at least slightly punishing Thad as a player for coming into the league young and being pretty productive early on and then hasn't seemed to really improve a great deal looking at his basic stats. I'm not saying he hasn't improved because I'm sure he has don't get me wrong. What I mean is many of us have said basically something like "He is who he is". That's a reasonable stance and I don't see him blowing up but I think we could have some hope of him improving as a player. He turned 26 near the end of June. That's still a pretty young player and its possible he could add to his game or improve some of the things he does well or improve some of his weaknesses.

I think the bottom line for me is the main reason I can't get too excited about Thad is his poor rebounding numbers for a PF. I know we are spoiled having Googs, or KG or Al or Love the past almost 20 years putting up 10+ rebound seasons but Thad's rebounding is nice for a SF not a PF. I don't see him improving much there but if he could get that rebound rate back to the 7.5 per game of 2013-2013 that's something I can for sure live with. Of course his extra steal per game than most PFs equals a posession so you could say that offsets 1 of his rebounds (which gain a posession) that I would like to see. :)

EDIT: Also thanks to all the posters that add all these stats and info from various sources those head to head matchups are interesting.

TeamRicky wrote:From the Houston Rockets board who think Thad is a good defender.

"1) Why does Thaddeus Young have a reputation for being a good defender? Is he even a good defender?

Thad Young has had a DRtg (the lower the better) of 100 and 103 the past 2 years. Josh Smith has a career average of 103, Shane Battier has an avg of 105, and Bruce Bowen's average is 102. As you can see, 101.5 average in the past 2 years is ELITE level defense.

2) Why add Young if you already T. Jones who is much cheaper? Why are you replacing our potential all-star PF?!?

The difference between Young and Jones is that Young is an excellent PERIMETER DEFENDER. He can guard SGs and SFs, while Jones is better used against bigger PFs. You can play Young as a SF with Jones while Harden/Parsons is on the bench, or play Young with Harden/Parsons as a PF.

Thad Young provides flexibility as a SF/PF. He can guard many positions and is not merely JUST a PF like Anderson/Millsap/Jones. They really don't have anyone that has the skillset of Young. "

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=247949

This is one reason Thad intruiges me because when he is on the floor he can guard SFs. Most PFs if they get switched to a wing player well that's a poor matchup for them defensively. Not with Thad. He could allow you to do lots of stuff on defense maybe a zone or a defense that's constantly switching. Maybe he allows you to put a lesser defender on the floor (Bazz, Bud, even Hummel) and let them guard the inept guy and put Thad on the better player. Some teams start a guys that isn't that good on offense (we started Brewer lol) so you know there will be some guys like that coming off the bench that can be guarded by just not letting them beat you on a basket cut or shooting a wide open jumper.

I'd also think that with his ability to get steals Thad would take away some of PFs face up game. You don't want to show the ball too much to a guy that has that kind of steal rate.

All this talk about Thad makes me want to see him play. Anyone have some links to full length Sixer games on youtube? I've been a Wolves fan I can take watching even their games from last year. Lol

Here is a Nets Sixers game from last year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0tP5YNOsMo

I think we can all agree Thad Young will be a solid starter. Would we like a better PF? Of course, but he will be a solid starter and teammate. This is the best way for us to build around Wiggins and Lavine. Instead of surrounding him with mistake pron rookies and other young players. We will have a solid group of veterans for them to play with and learn from.

If everyone stays healthy and Flip coaches like he did in his younger days this team will win 30+ games and do so with a lot of upside in our developing players.