Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Also Butler seemed to in one night moved Rubio from the fun friendly fan favorite to a guy to tustle with and call him out etc. interesting move I can't help but wonder if it was somewhat calculated. I'm not sure if Ibreally like it or wonder if the guy is nuts. Lol

I loved it and it was during a big momentum swing in the game. Butler is the Alpha now and that really solidified it for me.

I also loved it. I'm a big Rubio fan, but Butler did the right thing to ingnite his team. In other words, I think it was deliberate on Butler's part. Before the game, Wolves players were all hugging Ricky. That was fine and it wasn't surprising because Wolves players, like fans, really like Ricky. But the Wolves looked soft as an inferior Jazz team looked like they were ready to steal our home opener. Butler's message message to his new teammates and fans was clear -- Ricky's gone, f-Ricky, we're here to kick the other team's ass and win. Butler brings to this team two of the three things it needed most - defense and toughness. Not sure where we're going to get the third thing - 3 point shooting - but I loved what I saw from Butler Friday night.

monsterpile wrote:I finished watching the game tonight. I read the game thread and Lip's report. I'll add some thoughts here before reading the rest of the thread.

Crawford won us a game tonight. He has won over Lip.

Bazz has a couple nice passes including a pretty good looking drive into the middle of the floor and kick to a 3 point line. The Jazz are a bad matchup for him to have a big game because of their very good tim protection. That's why Carford having a good game helped a lot.

Towns is one of the most talented offensive bigs I have ever seen but he is awful as a roll guy. Maybe Justin Patton can get healthy and teach him and Dieng what to do. WTF it drive me insane and I think Jim Pete has to hold himself back breaking down those 2 on those plays. Because both of those guys struggle in that area it really doesn't help Teague it Butler out. Towns has to figure out out eventually but that play late when Crawford made the right play and Towns wasn't ready was very frustrating.

The Wolves D came to play for the most part. The created turnovers and that was key.

You could say we were lucky to win that game but that was also a bunch of crazy things to even get to the point it was. When the NBA created the clear path foil I was excited about it but now I think they should get rid of it. I can't figure out how they call it 25% of the time and they have to stop a game for a lot of the calls and that slows the game down.

Wiggins had a nice pass early in the game but whoever got it missed the shot.

I agree the offense looks bad. That's not surprising. I'm not worried this team is gonna score

Belly looks amazing. I wonder if they want to limit his minutes because I would have played him down the stretch maybe gave him a breather and put him back in.

I'm hard on Towns but ultimately he had a pretty good game.

Taj got the Wolves a bunch of possessions by his activity.

I'll take the win I hope Hood's injury isn't serious.

crazysauce wrote:I think the reason people get so upset about rubio is that he is a gamer. He has a passion that you just love to watch. Butler has it. Tyus has it. Crawford has it. Honestly that may be it on our team. I think that may be a huge reason for the concern about wiggins and towns. I want to see guys hit the deck. I want to see them get after it. I think the next time i see wiggins dive at a ball would be the first. This was a good thread to read. I see both sides. Just need to see a few more games. Anyone think thibs may have shaken teagues confidence benching him in 4th against spurs? Maybe hes thinkimg too much rather than just going out and playing. Oh my was crawford fun to watch though. Love watching his handles. Maybe they can rub off a bit on wiggins.

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I finished watching the game tonight. I read the game thread and Lip's report. I'll add some thoughts here before reading the rest of the thread.

Crawford won us a game tonight. He has won over Lip.

Bazz has a couple nice passes including a pretty good looking drive into the middle of the floor and kick to a 3 point line. The Jazz are a bad matchup for him to have a big game because of their very good tim protection. That's why Carford having a good game helped a lot.

Towns is one of the most talented offensive bigs I have ever seen but he is awful as a roll guy. Maybe Justin Patton can get healthy and teach him and Dieng what to do. WTF it drive me insane and I think Jim Pete has to hold himself back breaking down those 2 on those plays. Because both of those guys struggle in that area it really doesn't help Teague it Butler out. Towns has to figure out out eventually but that play late when Crawford made the right play and Towns wasn't ready was very frustrating.

The Wolves D came to play for the most part. The created turnovers and that was key.

You could say we were lucky to win that game but that was also a bunch of crazy things to even get to the point it was. When the NBA created the clear path foil I was excited about it but now I think they should get rid of it. I can't figure out how they call it 25% of the time and they have to stop a game for a lot of the calls and that slows the game down.

Wiggins had a nice pass early in the game but whoever got it missed the shot.

I agree the offense looks bad. That's not surprising. I'm not worried this team is gonna score

Belly looks amazing. I wonder if they want to limit his minutes because I would have played him down the stretch maybe gave him a breather and put him back in.

I'm hard on Towns but ultimately he had a pretty good game.

Taj got the Wolves a bunch of possessions by his activity.

I'll take the win I hope Hood's injury isn't serious.

Some really good observations here, monster. Yeah, Crawford clearly won this game for us. I think I (and maybe Lip too) harp too much on his slightly below average 3-point shooting percentage. What's important about Crawford is how he has achieved his 35% average...he'll go 1 for 10 in a couple games, but then get red hot like last night and win a couple consecutive games. But even on his cold nights, he's still an extraordinary ball handler and can contribute in that way. Plus he seems like a terrific teammate. Great pickup (and I promise not to turn against him when he goes 1-7 tonight :)).

Yeah, not a good match up for Bazz. He showed good consistent effort out there, especially on the boards and on defense, but I was happy that Thibs limited him to 12 minutes...he didn't look comfortable on offense. Maybe e becomes our wild card against OkC tonight.

Finally, Towns was atrocious on defense...I'm glad Jim Pete pointed it out, because it was driving me nuts. Our defense got so much better when Gorgui came in, and it makes sense to me that G was a +11 and KAT a -8. KAT was considered a very good defender in college, so does some of his ineptness fall on Thibs? I don't know, but it seems Thibs needs to spend some individual time with KAT explaining the basics of PnR defense. KAT has all the physical tools to be a great defender, but he was just plain awful Friday night.

Q12543 wrote:

crazysauce wrote:I think the reason people get so upset about rubio is that he is a gamer. He has a passion that you just love to watch. Butler has it. Tyus has it. Crawford has it. Honestly that may be it on our team. I think that may be a huge reason for the concern about wiggins and towns. I want to see guys hit the deck. I want to see them get after it. I think the next time i see wiggins dive at a ball would be the first. This was a good thread to read. I see both sides. Just need to see a few more games. Anyone think thibs may have shaken teagues confidence benching him in 4th against spurs? Maybe hes thinkimg too much rather than just going out and playing. Oh my was crawford fun to watch though. Love watching his handles. Maybe they can rub off a bit on wiggins.

I almost look at Crawford more as an artist than a finely-tuned athlete (which of course he's that too!). He said casually a few years ago when he went to the Clippers that it was the first summer he practiced shooting. Are you kidding me!?

I just think he plays by total feel and instinct, whereas some guys are still quite mechanical and needed drill upon drill upon drill to get where they are today (think Jimmy Butler).

Q12543 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I finished watching the game tonight. I read the game thread and Lip's report. I'll add some thoughts here before reading the rest of the thread.

Crawford won us a game tonight. He has won over Lip.

Bazz has a couple nice passes including a pretty good looking drive into the middle of the floor and kick to a 3 point line. The Jazz are a bad matchup for him to have a big game because of their very good tim protection. That's why Carford having a good game helped a lot.

Towns is one of the most talented offensive bigs I have ever seen but he is awful as a roll guy. Maybe Justin Patton can get healthy and teach him and Dieng what to do. WTF it drive me insane and I think Jim Pete has to hold himself back breaking down those 2 on those plays. Because both of those guys struggle in that area it really doesn't help Teague it Butler out. Towns has to figure out out eventually but that play late when Crawford made the right play and Towns wasn't ready was very frustrating.

The Wolves D came to play for the most part. The created turnovers and that was key.

You could say we were lucky to win that game but that was also a bunch of crazy things to even get to the point it was. When the NBA created the clear path foil I was excited about it but now I think they should get rid of it. I can't figure out how they call it 25% of the time and they have to stop a game for a lot of the calls and that slows the game down.

Wiggins had a nice pass early in the game but whoever got it missed the shot.

I agree the offense looks bad. That's not surprising. I'm not worried this team is gonna score

Belly looks amazing. I wonder if they want to limit his minutes because I would have played him down the stretch maybe gave him a breather and put him back in.

I'm hard on Towns but ultimately he had a pretty good game.

Taj got the Wolves a bunch of possessions by his activity.

I'll take the win I hope Hood's injury isn't serious.

Some really good observations here, monster. Yeah, Crawford clearly won this game for us. I think I (and maybe Lip too) harp too much on his slightly below average 3-point shooting percentage. What's important about Crawford is how he has achieved his 35% average...he'll go 1 for 10 in a couple games, but then get red hot like last night and win a couple consecutive games. But even on his cold nights, he's still an extraordinary ball handler and can contribute in that way. Plus he seems like a terrific teammate. Great pickup (and I promise not to turn against him when he goes 1-7 tonight :)).

Yeah, not a good match up for Bazz. He showed good consistent effort out there, especially on the boards and on defense, but I was happy that Thibs limited him to 12 minutes...he didn't look comfortable on offense. Maybe e becomes our wild card against OkC tonight.

Finally, Towns was atrocious on defense...I'm glad Jim Pete pointed it out, because it was driving me nuts. Our defense got so much better when Gorgui came in, and it makes sense to me that G was a +11 and KAT a -8. KAT was considered a very good defender in college, so does some of his ineptness fall on Thibs? I don't know, but it seems Thibs needs to spend some individual time with KAT explaining the basics of PnR defense. KAT has all the physical tools to be a great defender, but he was just plain awful Friday night.

KAT's defense (or lack thereof) is such a major red flag for this team. We simply aren't going to be much better than .500 if he continues to struggle on that end of the court. Gibson, Dieng, and Bjelly are all solid defensively given the right matchups, but they aren't so good that they can collectively make up for KAT. It's a real problem and one big reason I have the team as a borderline playoff squad.

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I finished watching the game tonight. I read the game thread and Lip's report. I'll add some thoughts here before reading the rest of the thread.

Crawford won us a game tonight. He has won over Lip.

Bazz has a couple nice passes including a pretty good looking drive into the middle of the floor and kick to a 3 point line. The Jazz are a bad matchup for him to have a big game because of their very good tim protection. That's why Carford having a good game helped a lot.

Towns is one of the most talented offensive bigs I have ever seen but he is awful as a roll guy. Maybe Justin Patton can get healthy and teach him and Dieng what to do. WTF it drive me insane and I think Jim Pete has to hold himself back breaking down those 2 on those plays. Because both of those guys struggle in that area it really doesn't help Teague it Butler out. Towns has to figure out out eventually but that play late when Crawford made the right play and Towns wasn't ready was very frustrating.

The Wolves D came to play for the most part. The created turnovers and that was key.

You could say we were lucky to win that game but that was also a bunch of crazy things to even get to the point it was. When the NBA created the clear path foil I was excited about it but now I think they should get rid of it. I can't figure out how they call it 25% of the time and they have to stop a game for a lot of the calls and that slows the game down.

Wiggins had a nice pass early in the game but whoever got it missed the shot.

I agree the offense looks bad. That's not surprising. I'm not worried this team is gonna score

Belly looks amazing. I wonder if they want to limit his minutes because I would have played him down the stretch maybe gave him a breather and put him back in.

I'm hard on Towns but ultimately he had a pretty good game.

Taj got the Wolves a bunch of possessions by his activity.

I'll take the win I hope Hood's injury isn't serious.

Some really good observations here, monster. Yeah, Crawford clearly won this game for us. I think I (and maybe Lip too) harp too much on his slightly below average 3-point shooting percentage. What's important about Crawford is how he has achieved his 35% average...he'll go 1 for 10 in a couple games, but then get red hot like last night and win a couple consecutive games. But even on his cold nights, he's still an extraordinary ball handler and can contribute in that way. Plus he seems like a terrific teammate. Great pickup (and I promise not to turn against him when he goes 1-7 tonight :)).

Yeah, not a good match up for Bazz. He showed good consistent effort out there, especially on the boards and on defense, but I was happy that Thibs limited him to 12 minutes...he didn't look comfortable on offense. Maybe e becomes our wild card against OkC tonight.

Finally, Towns was atrocious on defense...I'm glad Jim Pete pointed it out, because it was driving me nuts. Our defense got so much better when Gorgui came in, and it makes sense to me that G was a +11 and KAT a -8. KAT was considered a very good defender in college, so does some of his ineptness fall on Thibs? I don't know, but it seems Thibs needs to spend some individual time with KAT explaining the basics of PnR defense. KAT has all the physical tools to be a great defender, but he was just plain awful Friday night.

KAT's defense (or lack thereof) is such a major red flag for this team. We simply aren't going to be much better than .500 if he continues to struggle on that end of the court. Gibson, Dieng, and Bjelly are all solid defensively given the right matchups, but they aren't so good that they can collectively make up for KAT. It's a real problem and one big reason I have the team as a borderline playoff squad.

I thought there were some stretches early in the game he was doing a nice job. Towns talked coming into this season about understanding the defense and using his instincts more. I think he is a guy that:

1. Thinks his instincts are better than they are
2. Parts of his game are so good that he assumes other parts are good including his defense.

Offensively he is so talented at a lot of things at times it gets him into a bit of trouble when playing with another player like in pick and roll game. On defense he tries to do to much like helping when e shouldn't trying to block a shot when he should stay on his man or make another rotation. One time in the game Taj was switched onto Rubio. Rubio Drove on Taj and had a decent look at the basket but...this is Rubio finishing at the rim. Towns came off Gobert to help and when Rubio predictably missed the shot Gobert was there to easily clean it up. I'm not sure what it is going to take to get Towns to make the right plays and settle down at times. Taj has to be part of the answer to help him get there. Hopefully we see some growth in that area the next 20 games.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:Lip, I get that there is a lot of emotion involved with losing a player like Rubio. But man it's been two games. And to try and hammer that point after two games is a bit irrational. And we don't need to declare Wiggins a great player or not a great player after every game. Khans you continue to be the most rational and on point poster on the board.

It's not irrational or emotion-driven to say we would have been better off the past two games with Ricky based on what we've seen the past two games and what we know about both players. That's a very fair fact-based observation. I believe that's all Q and Bleed said and i know that's all i said. As i said, Teague played well defensively late in the 4th. I also noted that we'll have to see how this plays out over the season. By the end of the season, we may all look back and conclude that the swap was a net plus for us, especially when you factor in the 2018 1st round pick we received. But so far, some of us continue to believe we'd be better off with Ricky. That's not emotional or irrational. That's just a fact-based conclusion based on what we've seen so far. Others can reach a different conclusion and explain it. But that doesn't make the the contrary conclusion irrational or overly emotional.

As for Wiggins, who declared he's a great or not great player?? I simply said I liked the way he played last night and in the 1st game. I believe I said his play this two games is a reminder of how great he can be. Is that a declaration he's great? Or not great?

The irrational emotion I see is in those who seem offended by any assessment of a player's performance in particular games -- somehow seeing things in what others write that isn't there.

It's not a fact. It's a guess. You cannot factually know we would be better with Ricky because we don't have Ricky anymore to play with this team. You can guess we'd be better offensively just as I'd guess that we'd actually be worse with a starting 5 of Ricky, Butler, Wiggins, Gibson and Towns because of the shooting deficiencies and the clogged up lanes not only closing passing lanes for Ricky, but would also give us no room to score around the bucket for Towns, Butler or Wiggins. Oh and now you've taken the ball out of Butler and Wiggins hands to make Ricky valuable at all thus lowering their value on the court. As mediocre as Teague has been, he hasn't dominated the ball either. Ricky has a 25.8 usage rate with Utah. Given the talent on our roster, having a player of Ricky's caliber ending 26% of positions either positively or negatively is a downgrade in quality we could get from our big 3 getting those possessions. The irrational emotion here is we have this new team with several good players that will take time to gel and all people can do here is bitch that we don't have Ricky anymore after we just beat him. Ricky getting praised in a game he lost. It's a familiar feeling on here. Hopefully the winning will finally drown out the praise for the losers.

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:Lip, I get that there is a lot of emotion involved with losing a player like Rubio. But man it's been two games. And to try and hammer that point after two games is a bit irrational. And we don't need to declare Wiggins a great player or not a great player after every game. Khans you continue to be the most rational and on point poster on the board.

It's not irrational or emotion-driven to say we would have been better off the past two games with Ricky based on what we've seen the past two games and what we know about both players. That's a very fair fact-based observation. I believe that's all Q and Bleed said and i know that's all i said. As i said, Teague played well defensively late in the 4th. I also noted that we'll have to see how this plays out over the season. By the end of the season, we may all look back and conclude that the swap was a net plus for us, especially when you factor in the 2018 1st round pick we received. But so far, some of us continue to believe we'd be better off with Ricky. That's not emotional or irrational. That's just a fact-based conclusion based on what we've seen so far. Others can reach a different conclusion and explain it. But that doesn't make the the contrary conclusion irrational or overly emotional.

As for Wiggins, who declared he's a great or not great player?? I simply said I liked the way he played last night and in the 1st game. I believe I said his play this two games is a reminder of how great he can be. Is that a declaration he's great? Or not great?

The irrational emotion I see is in those who seem offended by any assessment of a player's performance in particular games -- somehow seeing things in what others write that isn't there.

It's not a fact. It's a guess. You cannot factually know we would be better with Ricky because we don't have Ricky anymore to play with this team. You can guess we'd be better offensively just as I'd guess that we'd actually be worse with a starting 5 of Ricky, Butler, Wiggins, Gibson and Towns because of the shooting deficiencies and the clogged up lanes not only closing passing lanes for Ricky, but would also give us no room to score around the bucket for Towns, Butler or Wiggins. Oh and now you've taken the ball out of Butler and Wiggins hands to make Ricky valuable at all thus lowering their value on the court. As mediocre as Teague has been, he hasn't dominated the ball either. Ricky has a 25.8 usage rate with Utah. Given the talent on our roster, having a player of Ricky's caliber ending 26% of positions either positively or negatively is a downgrade in quality we could get from our big 3 getting those possessions. The irrational emotion here is we have this new team with several good players that will take time to gel and all people can do here is bitch that we don't have Ricky anymore after we just beat him. Ricky getting praised in a game he lost. It's a familiar feeling on here. Hopefully the winning will finally drown out the praise for the losers.

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:Lip, I get that there is a lot of emotion involved with losing a player like Rubio. But man it's been two games. And to try and hammer that point after two games is a bit irrational. And we don't need to declare Wiggins a great player or not a great player after every game. Khans you continue to be the most rational and on point poster on the board.

It's not irrational or emotion-driven to say we would have been better off the past two games with Ricky based on what we've seen the past two games and what we know about both players. That's a very fair fact-based observation. I believe that's all Q and Bleed said and i know that's all i said. As i said, Teague played well defensively late in the 4th. I also noted that we'll have to see how this plays out over the season. By the end of the season, we may all look back and conclude that the swap was a net plus for us, especially when you factor in the 2018 1st round pick we received. But so far, some of us continue to believe we'd be better off with Ricky. That's not emotional or irrational. That's just a fact-based conclusion based on what we've seen so far. Others can reach a different conclusion and explain it. But that doesn't make the the contrary conclusion irrational or overly emotional.

As for Wiggins, who declared he's a great or not great player?? I simply said I liked the way he played last night and in the 1st game. I believe I said his play this two games is a reminder of how great he can be. Is that a declaration he's great? Or not great?

The irrational emotion I see is in those who seem offended by any assessment of a player's performance in particular games -- somehow seeing things in what others write that isn't there.

It's not a fact. It's a guess. You cannot factually know we would be better with Ricky because we don't have Ricky anymore to play with this team. You can guess we'd be better offensively just as I'd guess that we'd actually be worse with a starting 5 of Ricky, Butler, Wiggins, Gibson and Towns because of the shooting deficiencies and the clogged up lanes not only closing passing lanes for Ricky, but would also give us no room to score around the bucket for Towns, Butler or Wiggins. Oh and now you've taken the ball out of Butler and Wiggins hands to make Ricky valuable at all thus lowering their value on the court. As mediocre as Teague has been, he hasn't dominated the ball either. Ricky has a 25.8 usage rate with Utah. Given the talent on our roster, having a player of Ricky's caliber ending 26% of positions either positively or negatively is a downgrade in quality we could get from our big 3 getting those possessions. The irrational emotion here is we have this new team with several good players that will take time to gel and all people can do here is bitch that we don't have Ricky anymore after we just beat him. Ricky getting praised in a game he lost. It's a familiar feeling on here. Hopefully the winning will finally drown out the praise for the losers.

Kahns, you're way too wound up over this. You'd think that Teague is your close cousin and Rubio robbed you at gun point. :). I didn't say it's a fact we would have performed better with Ricky rather than Teague as our PG. It's obviously my opinion, which I characterized as a "fact-based" observation. Just look at the box score for some of those facts. And of course, there are facts that you can point to for a different conclusion. That's fine. But I think the emotion is emanating more from you than anyone else in this thread. I should add that there's nothing wrong with emotion or emotion-driven opinions on an NBA message board - unless you're on the planet Vulcan.

The Wolves haven't played well these first two games. That's certainly the way I and a number of people on this Board see it. If this team is going to be a top 4 or 5 team in the West, they have to play a lot better than they have these past two games. We shouldn't need a last second shot to squeeze out a win at home with a packed house over a Jazz team without Hayward and Hill and without Hood in the 4th quarter. I'm hoping it's primarily a matter of blending a new group of players and the fact we had only 3 preseason games. Time will tell.

lipoli390 wrote:Kahns -- I give up. I said it was a fact-based observation. I clarified for you that it was obviously my opinion -- based on facts that are apparent in the box scores where you see Ricky getting far more assists and more rebounds with comparable shooting. Others have mentioned their observation that Ricky has shown more intensity and passion than Teague and reached the same conclusion as me. It's fair to call that a fact-based observation, but no matter. Every conclusion anyone expresses on this board is obviously an opinion. And we all usually rely to some extent on facts to support our opinion.

Seriously, you need to relax. Your initial response to my post made you sound incensed that anyone would dare suggest we might be better off than Ricky rather than Teague these past two games. Note that I included positive observations about Teague in his matchup against Ricky. I'm aware that Teague will likely end up shooting better than Ricky over the course of the season. Of course, I noted that I was just commenting on the first two games and that the final verdict isn't in. I'm pretty level-headed about this and most things. You can debate my opinion by simply saying you disagree and pointing out the facts and analysis that lead you to a different conclusion than mine. If you can't do that, then just ignore my posts.