Minnesota Sports Forum

thedoper wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:For me, I'm offering Wiggins and picks to the Spurs for Kawhi Leonard. When that doesn't work, I offer Wiggins to the Clippers for DeAndre Jordan and a top 5 protected pick provided Jordan agrees to re-sign, then turning around and dangling KAT to the Spurs for Kawhi. From here I'm signing 3 point shooters, multiple.

Teague
Butler
Leonard
Gibson
Jordan

Instant top 3 defensive team that solid offensive squad. Also a team that could calm down the shooting percentage of the Rockets and Warriors of this world. 3 lockdown defenders, 3 defenders that can guard several positions, making this team a lot less vulnerable to effective pick-and-roll teams.

Does our window shorten? Probably, but I also think it locks in Butler to re-signing and makes the Wolves a top 3 team in the NBA in the starting lineup.

Okay, rip away!

I actually think that is brilliant and very unlikely. Creative though.

That is one hell of a defensive team.

I wonder if Kawhi is going to be the same player? That whole situation seems weird to me.

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:For me, I'm offering Wiggins and picks to the Spurs for Kawhi Leonard. When that doesn't work, I offer Wiggins to the Clippers for DeAndre Jordan and a top 5 protected pick provided Jordan agrees to re-sign, then turning around and dangling KAT to the Spurs for Kawhi. From here I'm signing 3 point shooters, multiple.

Teague
Butler
Leonard
Gibson
Jordan

Instant top 3 defensive team that solid offensive squad. Also a team that could calm down the shooting percentage of the Rockets and Warriors of this world. 3 lockdown defenders, 3 defenders that can guard several positions, making this team a lot less vulnerable to effective pick-and-roll teams.

Does our window shorten? Probably, but I also think it locks in Butler to re-signing and makes the Wolves a top 3 team in the NBA in the starting lineup.

Okay, rip away!

I actually think that is brilliant and very unlikely. Creative though.

That is one hell of a defensive team.

I wonder if Kawhi is going to be the same player? That whole situation seems weird to me.

I've been saying a similar thing. Cant help but think that somehow if the spurs are actually going to deal him they know something dark and sinister that others don't.

Q12543 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:For me, I'm offering Wiggins and picks to the Spurs for Kawhi Leonard. When that doesn't work, I offer Wiggins to the Clippers for DeAndre Jordan and a top 5 protected pick provided Jordan agrees to re-sign, then turning around and dangling KAT to the Spurs for Kawhi. From here I'm signing 3 point shooters, multiple.

Teague
Butler
Leonard
Gibson
Jordan

Instant top 3 defensive team that solid offensive squad. Also a team that could calm down the shooting percentage of the Rockets and Warriors of this world. 3 lockdown defenders, 3 defenders that can guard several positions, making this team a lot less vulnerable to effective pick-and-roll teams.

Does our window shorten? Probably, but I also think it locks in Butler to re-signing and makes the Wolves a top 3 team in the NBA in the starting lineup.

Okay, rip away!

I understand what you are going for. I really do and that might be a damn awesome team but Jordan is on the decline and all of Jordan, butler and Leonard are free agents next year. Is one year worth it when Leonard (rumors are he wanted a big market for sponsorship) and butler coming off injuries

I'm making the assumption that they would want to re-sign because they couldn't possibly find a better scenario to sign in :). Jordan's only 1 year older than Butler, and I do realize he only has a few good years left, but I figure this also buys us time to find a defensive center to replace him.

I just don't think it's worth throwing away the future while GS still has their big 4. You can't guard them no matter who you add. Their best offense is better than any defense can stop. I think we'd be better than Houston in your scenario, but it just requires too much luck to win a title for me to be fully on board. I'd rather be a perennial playoff contender until the current crop of stars age out and hope we can get a third guy to join Towns and Wiggins to win a title. I don't think Jimmy is good enough to be the best player on a title team so I'm using him as a piece to build the culture here until Towns and Wiggins are ready to take it to the next level. I'm not trying to build a championship team around Jimmy. You're scenario is very tempting though.

But that "next level" might be the same level we're at, or worse! These two have proven for 3 and 4 seasons respectively that they can't win games when tagged as the main guys. The runway of potential only lasts so long....

They did show improvement in carrying the team when Jimmy went down. We hovered around .500 without Jimmy which is better than the 38% and 36% winning percentages we rocked the previous 2 years with them as the guys. The runway of potential for me goes until 25. That's when you are in your prime and you are who you are. I think you are underestimating just how damaging our team culture and performance was during their early development.

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:For me, I'm offering Wiggins and picks to the Spurs for Kawhi Leonard. When that doesn't work, I offer Wiggins to the Clippers for DeAndre Jordan and a top 5 protected pick provided Jordan agrees to re-sign, then turning around and dangling KAT to the Spurs for Kawhi. From here I'm signing 3 point shooters, multiple.

Teague
Butler
Leonard
Gibson
Jordan

Instant top 3 defensive team that solid offensive squad. Also a team that could calm down the shooting percentage of the Rockets and Warriors of this world. 3 lockdown defenders, 3 defenders that can guard several positions, making this team a lot less vulnerable to effective pick-and-roll teams.

Does our window shorten? Probably, but I also think it locks in Butler to re-signing and makes the Wolves a top 3 team in the NBA in the starting lineup.

Okay, rip away!

I understand what you are going for. I really do and that might be a damn awesome team but Jordan is on the decline and all of Jordan, butler and Leonard are free agents next year. Is one year worth it when Leonard (rumors are he wanted a big market for sponsorship) and butler coming off injuries

I'm making the assumption that they would want to re-sign because they couldn't possibly find a better scenario to sign in :). Jordan's only 1 year older than Butler, and I do realize he only has a few good years left, but I figure this also buys us time to find a defensive center to replace him.

I just don't think it's worth throwing away the future while GS still has their big 4. You can't guard them no matter who you add. Their best offense is better than any defense can stop. I think we'd be better than Houston in your scenario, but it just requires too much luck to win a title for me to be fully on board. I'd rather be a perennial playoff contender until the current crop of stars age out and hope we can get a third guy to join Towns and Wiggins to win a title. I don't think Jimmy is good enough to be the best player on a title team so I'm using him as a piece to build the culture here until Towns and Wiggins are ready to take it to the next level. I'm not trying to build a championship team around Jimmy. You're scenario is very tempting though.

But that "next level" might be the same level we're at, or worse! These two have proven for 3 and 4 seasons respectively that they can't win games when tagged as the main guys. The runway of potential only lasts so long....

They did show improvement in carrying the team when Jimmy went down. We hovered around .500 without Jimmy which is better than the 38% and 36% winning percentages we rocked the previous 2 years with them as the guys. The runway of potential for me goes until 25. That's when you are in your prime and you are who you are. I think you are underestimating just how damaging our team culture and performance was during their early development.

People get tired of the "they are young..." thing but it's also a legit thing that players can continue to improve. Some don't that's why people say it won't happen and yes a lot of guys won't get better. Some guys can and will even defensively. Even at 25 some guys have upside. At 24 Klay Thompson was thought to be just a pretty good shooter that was a very solid starter. Remember back when some there was talk he wasn't enough to get back for Kevin Love? He took another step that year and...boy if we had just gotten him straight up for Love that would have been a terrific move and yes he would have shot great 3 point percentages here. :)

monsterpile wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

mrhockey89 wrote:For me, I'm offering Wiggins and picks to the Spurs for Kawhi Leonard. When that doesn't work, I offer Wiggins to the Clippers for DeAndre Jordan and a top 5 protected pick provided Jordan agrees to re-sign, then turning around and dangling KAT to the Spurs for Kawhi. From here I'm signing 3 point shooters, multiple.

Teague
Butler
Leonard
Gibson
Jordan

Instant top 3 defensive team that solid offensive squad. Also a team that could calm down the shooting percentage of the Rockets and Warriors of this world. 3 lockdown defenders, 3 defenders that can guard several positions, making this team a lot less vulnerable to effective pick-and-roll teams.

Does our window shorten? Probably, but I also think it locks in Butler to re-signing and makes the Wolves a top 3 team in the NBA in the starting lineup.

Okay, rip away!

I understand what you are going for. I really do and that might be a damn awesome team but Jordan is on the decline and all of Jordan, butler and Leonard are free agents next year. Is one year worth it when Leonard (rumors are he wanted a big market for sponsorship) and butler coming off injuries

I'm making the assumption that they would want to re-sign because they couldn't possibly find a better scenario to sign in :). Jordan's only 1 year older than Butler, and I do realize he only has a few good years left, but I figure this also buys us time to find a defensive center to replace him.

I just don't think it's worth throwing away the future while GS still has their big 4. You can't guard them no matter who you add. Their best offense is better than any defense can stop. I think we'd be better than Houston in your scenario, but it just requires too much luck to win a title for me to be fully on board. I'd rather be a perennial playoff contender until the current crop of stars age out and hope we can get a third guy to join Towns and Wiggins to win a title. I don't think Jimmy is good enough to be the best player on a title team so I'm using him as a piece to build the culture here until Towns and Wiggins are ready to take it to the next level. I'm not trying to build a championship team around Jimmy. You're scenario is very tempting though.

But that "next level" might be the same level we're at, or worse! These two have proven for 3 and 4 seasons respectively that they can't win games when tagged as the main guys. The runway of potential only lasts so long....

They did show improvement in carrying the team when Jimmy went down. We hovered around .500 without Jimmy which is better than the 38% and 36% winning percentages we rocked the previous 2 years with them as the guys. The runway of potential for me goes until 25. That's when you are in your prime and you are who you are. I think you are underestimating just how damaging our team culture and performance was during their early development.

People get tired of the "they are young..." thing but it's also a legit thing that players can continue to improve. Some don't that's why people say it won't happen and yes a lot of guys won't get better. Some guys can and will even defensively. Even at 25 some guys have upside. At 24 Klay Thompson was thought to be just a pretty good shooter that was a very solid starter. Remember back when some there was talk he wasn't enough to get back for Kevin Love? He took another step that year and...boy if we had just gotten him straight up for Love that would have been a terrific move and yes he would have shot great 3 point percentages here. :)

I've already gone on record that I don't want to give up on KAT or Wiggins. Actually giving up on KAT would be incredible dumb. But I remember a lot of people salivating at the chance of getting Thompson in exchange for Love. And Flip would have done the deal if the Warriors hadn't been holding out for more. Now let's look at Thompson's numbers in his second, third and fourth seasons:

Season 2:
82 games, 36Min, 16.6 points, 40% 3-pt% on 6.4 attempts

Season 3:
81 games, 35.4M, 18.4 points, 41.7% 3-pt% on 6.6 attempts

Season 4:
77 games, 21.7 points, 44% 3-pt% on 7.1 attempts.

As a shooter/scorer/3-point shooter, Thompson was excelling a early as his second season. Note also that he improved in each of those seasons in every scoring/shooting stat -- points, shooting percentage and volume. He was already regarded as a very good defender by the end of his second season. I know Flip told me that one of the reasons he liked Thompson was his defense. Compare Thompson's numbers to Wiggins -- both the numbers and more importantly the trend line of improvement. That's why it's legitimate to be concerned about Wiggins. But I'm still inclined to give Wiggins another season here in Minnesota. I'm hoping we see the sort of breakout from him that we saw from Oladipo in his 5th season this year.

Oladipo has taken a major leap, but it's mostly because he was given the green light and a vote of confidence to be THE guy. If you look more carefully, he's always been a good ball handler and passer. And his 3-point shooting has improved each and every year since his rookie season.

What can be said about Wiggins' trajectory up to this point? I see it as mostly being flat....hard for me to suddenly see him break out next season. I still hold out hope that may be he develops a reliable 3-point shot and becomes the 3 & D player that perhaps ends up being his best role. All these reps over the years as a ball handler in pick and roll or isolation on the wings...I've seen ZERO improvement. He sometimes makes a spectacular spin move or foray into the lane. But most of the time it's a missed long 2 or he gets stripped of the ball.

Q12543 wrote:Oladipo has taken a major leap, but it's mostly because he was given the green light and a vote of confidence to be THE guy. If you look more carefully, he's always been a good ball handler and passer. And his 3-point shooting has improved each and every year since his rookie season.

What can be said about Wiggins' trajectory up to this point? I see it as mostly being flat....hard for me to suddenly see him break out next season. I still hold out hope that may be he develops a reliable 3-point shot and becomes the 3 & D player that perhaps ends up being his best role. All these reps over the years as a ball handler in pick and roll or isolation on the wings...I've seen ZERO improvement. He sometimes makes a spectacular spin move or foray into the lane. But most of the time it's a missed long 2 or he gets stripped of the ball.

I'll say this, I see more flashes of his defense and passing this year than in the past, but I agree with Q in that I see Wiggins trajectory being fairly flat. If we can get a proven, hard working, GOOD player then I think you do it. If he ends up being a late bloomer then so be it.

I'll be honest, I think Thibs will be shopping Wiggins this summer. We're hearing they plan on being aggressive this offseason again, and both Thibs and Butler see Wiggins on a daily basis.

Lip said he wouldn't trade KAT, and I wouldn't either, unless you dangled a healthy Kawhi, in which case I do it in a heartbeat to get a top 3 or so player in the NBA on the front end of his prime to pair with out other top 10 NBA player in Butler.

Q12543 wrote:Oladipo has taken a major leap, but it's mostly because he was given the green light and a vote of confidence to be THE guy. If you look more carefully, he's always been a good ball handler and passer. And his 3-point shooting has improved each and every year since his rookie season.

What can be said about Wiggins' trajectory up to this point? I see it as mostly being flat....hard for me to suddenly see him break out next season. I still hold out hope that may be he develops a reliable 3-point shot and becomes the 3 & D player that perhaps ends up being his best role. All these reps over the years as a ball handler in pick and roll or isolation on the wings...I've seen ZERO improvement. He sometimes makes a spectacular spin move or foray into the lane. But most of the time it's a missed long 2 or he gets stripped of the ball.

Q - I think you're right about the reason Oladipo took the leap this past season. I also agree that Wiggins has shown little of anything to suggest the sort of upward trajectory you'd expect from someone on track to become at least an perennial allstar worthy of anything close to a max contract. He certainly hasn't shown the trajectory that Thompson showed in the stats included in my post.

But Wiggins did improve defensively this past season and you hear guys like Butler and Taj rave about what Wiggins does in practice. I remember when the Wolves let Billups go after years in the League with no discernable improvement in games but some impressive work in practice. Moreover, I just don't think the Wolves are in a good position to trade Wiggins. If we could get an expiring contract and a high first round pick (top 5) I'd probably do it. But I dont' see any team willing to do that deal. If we traded Wiggins for an older veteran role player, which is the best I think we could do, we'd be making the wrong move. That would mean casting our lot with a team built around KAT and Butler. I can't accept building the team around only those two, knowing one of them is coming off meniscus surgery, is about to turn 29, has played at least 70 games in only 2 of his 7 seasons, and who even when healthy isn't at the star level of a Harden, Curry, etc.

Q12543 wrote:Oladipo has taken a major leap, but it's mostly because he was given the green light and a vote of confidence to be THE guy. If you look more carefully, he's always been a good ball handler and passer. And his 3-point shooting has improved each and every year since his rookie season.

What can be said about Wiggins' trajectory up to this point? I see it as mostly being flat....hard for me to suddenly see him break out next season. I still hold out hope that may be he develops a reliable 3-point shot and becomes the 3 & D player that perhaps ends up being his best role. All these reps over the years as a ball handler in pick and roll or isolation on the wings...I've seen ZERO improvement. He sometimes makes a spectacular spin move or foray into the lane. But most of the time it's a missed long 2 or he gets stripped of the ball.

Sure that's all true although the improvement for him this year was on the other side of the ball. My point is that Wiggins and Towns are still young enough they aren't finished products yet. With Both guys they don't have anything that significantly physically limits them from being really good on either end. It's not like Love who legitimately has some physical issues that make it harder for him to be a good defender. Only time will tell and wiggins in particular...there really is reason for skeptism. Only time will team and I don't think there is any aspect of Wiggins that hasn't been discussed on this board the past few months.

Also based on the snippets I heard from the press conference today Thibs and Layden seem to know the obvious they need wings that can shoot and defend. Now will they execute well and get the right guys or utilize their assets well? We will find out but it doesn't seem like they are thinking something off the rails different than pretty much everyone else.

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Oladipo has taken a major leap, but it's mostly because he was given the green light and a vote of confidence to be THE guy. If you look more carefully, he's always been a good ball handler and passer. And his 3-point shooting has improved each and every year since his rookie season.

What can be said about Wiggins' trajectory up to this point? I see it as mostly being flat....hard for me to suddenly see him break out next season. I still hold out hope that may be he develops a reliable 3-point shot and becomes the 3 & D player that perhaps ends up being his best role. All these reps over the years as a ball handler in pick and roll or isolation on the wings...I've seen ZERO improvement. He sometimes makes a spectacular spin move or foray into the lane. But most of the time it's a missed long 2 or he gets stripped of the ball.

Sure that's all true although the improvement for him this year was on the other side of the ball. My point is that Wiggins and Towns are still young enough they aren't finished products yet. With Both guys they don't have anything that significantly physically limits them from being really good on either end. It's not like Love who legitimately has some physical issues that make it harder for him to be a good defender. Only time will tell and wiggins in particular...there really is reason for skeptism. Only time will team and I don't think there is any aspect of Wiggins that hasn't been discussed on this board the past few months.

Also based on the snippets I heard from the press conference today Thibs and Layden seem to know the obvious they need wings that can shoot and defend. Now will they execute well and get the right guys or utilize their assets well? We will find out but it doesn't seem like they are thinking something off the rails different than pretty much everyone else.

Thibodeau usually says the right things. But in two years, he's used all the team's cap space, and all the high draft picks at his disposal, while making all the trades and acquisitions he wanted, yet the Wolves were near the bottom of the League defensively, one of the worst teams defending the three, and dead last in 3-pointers made. Now we're left within only around $5.4 million of our MLE and expiring Belly contract and a reputation around the League as a team with a head coach who doesn't play his bench. Given all that, what are the odds that Thibodeau and Layden will be able to improve this team significantly? I'd say the odds are pretty slim.

As I mentioned before, we already have almost all of Thibodeau's former Bulls. :). Seriously, we haven't seen Thibodeau and Layden do anything really dumb. But there's no sign yet of brilliance either -- no trading up for Donovan Mitchell, no drafting of Kyle Kuzma or even John Collins. Thibodeau's never even served in an NBA front office before coming to the Wolves and Layden's one stint as the head of an NBA front office was a disaster. I have no confidence in their ability to execute effectively with the limited resources at their disposal. So I'm counting on KAT and Wiggins improving a lot before next season, with KAT improving defensively and Wiggins taking a huge leap forward on both sides of the ball. If that happens and all our key guys stay healthy next season, the result could be very good. But maybe Thibodeau and Layden will surprise us.