Minnesota Sports Forum

thedoper wrote:Fire Thibs we barely won.

He also won his 300th game too quickly. Get him out of here.

The defense was horrible, Crawford had to go crazy just to keep it close. Then finally they had a couple stops.

Camden wrote:

thedoper wrote:Fire Thibs we barely won.

He also won his 300th game too quickly. Get him out of here.

Name the last Wolves coach to coach 3 full consecutive seasons... Can't we just keep the same freaking coach and front office for longer than a couple years? Maybe a few of us need to get some "Trust the Processor" shirts with a smiling Thibs face on them.

monsterpile wrote:

Camden wrote:

thedoper wrote:Fire Thibs we barely won.

He also won his 300th game too quickly. Get him out of here.

Name the last Wolves coach to coach 3 full consecutive seasons... Can't we just keep the same freaking coach and front office for longer than a couple years? Maybe a few of us need to get some "Trust the Processor" shirts with a smiling Thibs face on them.

I think this is a great point Monster. If the plan is to move the team in the right direction we're certainly headed that way. I'd like to play it out two more years before firing the coach if only for continuity's sake.

I have not been very pleased with Thibs The Coach this season but even I have to admit it's too premature to fire him. It's just not realistic or smart for a whole variety of reasons.

It's also possible to be critical of a coach, yet not call for his head at the same time. Not everything needs to be so digital!

One of the good things about this Wolves team so far is that they haven't gone on any significant losing streaks so far. They have 2 two game losing streaks while having a 5 game winning streak and a 3 game winning streak. 18-13 hasn't been pretty but considering where this franchise has been I'll take it. To compare the Twins made the playoffs last year partly because they avoided a massive losing streak as well. Their longest losing streak was 4 games. If the Wolves can keep avoiding any significant losing streaks it's gonna keep them where they and we all want them to be which is in the playoff hunt and possibly in this 4th seed contention. It would also be nice to stay ahead of OKC just for draft pick purposes. :)

monsterpile wrote:One of the good things about this Wolves team so far is that they haven't gone on any significant losing streaks so far. They have 2 two game losing streaks while having a 5 game winning streak and a 3 game winning streak. 18-13 hasn't been pretty but considering where this franchise has been I'll take it. To compare the Twins made the playoffs last year partly because they avoided a massive losing streak as well. Their longest losing streak was 4 games. If the Wolves can keep avoiding any significant losing streaks it's gonna keep them where they and we all want them to be which is in the playoff hunt and possibly in this 4th seed contention. It would also be nice to stay ahead of OKC just for draft pick purposes. :)

Not too far ahead though....we want OKC to make the playoffs....along with us of course. I still think they ultimately pass us, especially as our schedule starts getting tougher.

Q12543 wrote:I have not been very pleased with Thibs The Coach this season but even I have to admit it's too premature to fire him. It's just not realistic or smart for a whole variety of reasons.

It's also possible to be critical of a coach, yet not call for his head at the same time. Not everything needs to be so digital!

I'm going to challenge you on this one, Q. What are the reasons it is not smart to move on from Thibs at this point? Several of the Thibs supporters point to these factors, which I think are easily refuted:

Continuity: Yes, this team has had three coaches in three years, and it would be nice to have some continuity. But continuity for continuity's sake is not helpful...it has to be continuity with the right coach, and I think Thibs has demonstrated he is the wrong guy for this team. Continuity with the wrong guy is a prescription for continued under-performance.

Thibs record with the Bulls: Yes, Thibs had a good record with a Bulls team with some very good players. But has the game changed since then, and is his performance with one team really relevant to his ability to coach this team? Thibs has clearly shown me that his coaching style is quite different from other NBA coaches and is not a good fit in today's NBA.

The Wolves' 18-13 record: I like being 5 games over .500 too, but as you have pointed out several times, it doesn't feel like a sustainable record. The schedule has been easy, we are losing games to poor teams we should not lose to, and we are winning too many games just because Crawford gets hot. Is this really a .581 team? The way they are winning right now, I would say not even close,

Those are the primary reasons Thibs supporters say he should stay. I find the reasons he should go to be more compelling:

1) His antiquated offense. Most successful offenses have moved to quick ball-movement motion offenses designed to create layups and open threes, but Thibs continues to emphasize ISO ball and long 2's. We still score points because POBO Thibs (and Flip) have built a very potent offensive roster. But many of us are frustrated with this offense, and think it could be so much more.

2) His aversion to playing his bench. Thibs is an outlier by a significant margin in wearing out his starters, and as I have pointed out time and again, this leads to late game collapses when our starters just don't have the legs to compete. He set an NBA record for most lost 10-point leads last year, and the trend continues this year. Invariably when we win it is because of the rare occurrences where he uses his bench (the recent Kings win) or where our opposing coach also neglects his bench (the Trailblazers game). This Wolves team is very good in the 4th quarter when they are rested...Thibs just doesn't see it.

3) There is evidence he has lost this team. Robson tweeted about this during the last game, and it is evident when you go to games. The body language is terrible, and this is especially unusual for a team than is winning.

More and more the national and local media are criticizing Thibs' coaching style...from the barking, to the burning out starters, to the antiquated offense, to the lack of improvement on offense. Thibs seems to be criticized more and more each day.

My questions to you, Q, are these. Do you think Thibs is the right guy to coach this team, or might there be a better option out there that could get the most out of this roster? What are the reasons you think Thibs should not be fired?

LST -- I agree with your take on Thibs as Wolves head coach. I'm not sure what Q would consider premature. If he means not firing Thibs this season, I'm actually in agreement with him. As painful as it is to watch the way this team plays, I think Taylor need to see how the entire season plays out before making a definitive decision. Thibs wanted to coach here because of the players we had before he came. After two off-seasons as PBO, Thibs now has the additional players he wants -- Butler, Taj, Teague, Crawford, Aldrich, MGH, Aaron Brooks. In his dual role as head coach and PBO, Thibs brought all those players here while also extending Gorgui and Wiggins in addition to re-signing Bazz. So this his team. He should have a full season to coach it. If I were in Glen Taylor's position, I would have been tempted to jettison Thibs right after the loss to Phoenix. Yet, I think it would be more prudent to wait and see how well the team does over a full season before letting him go. Maybe you and I are wrong about Thibs, in which case we'd both want him to stay. If we were in 9th or 10th place in the West standings right now, I'd feel differently. But we're doing well enough for me to believe we should keep Thibs the rest of the season before making a final decision.

Continuity: Thibodeau hasn't even coached two seasons in Minnesota. The general rule of thumb in professional sports -- granted, there are examples where it's not the case -- is that new management/coaching gets approximately three years to put their fingerprint on the team. Adjusting to personnel, acclimating those pieces to a new system, and then tinkering with the on-field product to find what works best. Thibs hasn't had nearly enough time to establish himself here. Additionally, it hasn't even been a week since Minnesota's most talented offensive player and arguably most promising piece, Karl-Anthony Towns, discussed with J.J. Redick his desire to be in the same system more than just one season. He alluded to the numerous coaching changes as an obstacle that's been in his path thus far in his career. Perhaps allowing Towns to further settle in and become more comfortable with Thibodeau's schemes it could benefit him -- and the team as a result. Or we could replace Thibs and continue the process of starting over.

Thibodeau's record with the Bulls: I've talked about Thibs' past in Chicago far too much as it is, and it'll always be brought up on this board, but the fact of the matter is that Thibs took a young team and molded them into being the best defensive team in the NBA, a championship contender before ensuing injuries, and a perennial playoff team winning multiple playoff series -- most of those series without the team's best player. His overal record remains in elite company even after losing 51 games last season. And while people point to Thibs as being incapable of adjusting, he reshaped those Bulls teams on the fly. Originally the team centered around Rose playing high screen and roll offense, then he adapted to Rose's injury and worked the offense around Noah operating from the elbow, which in turn put Noah in MVP discussions, and then Thibs implanted triangle offense concepts on his way out. He took the [injury] hits -- and poor roster construction -- and kept winning games. He deserves all the credit he receives for his tenure in Chicago. You will never win that debate, in my opinion.

The Wolves' 18-13 record: Minnesota hasn't finished a season with a winning record since the 2004-05 season. That's a whopping 12 consecutive seasons of sub-500 basketball. The fact of the matter is that the Wolves are winning games to start the season.

According to ESPN's NBA metrics, the Wolves have had the 29th easiest Strength of Schedule (SOS) to date. That matches the eye test, however, I can't find it in myself to criticize a team -- or a coach -- for beating the teams on the schedule. I'll also add that the Wolves have some decent wins on hand to this point so it's not all bottom dwellers. Beating Oklahoma City twice, Utah with a healthy Gobert, San Antonio (even without Leonard, that's a good win), and Portland. Should they have more wins? Probably, but 18-13 is relatively good and leaves us in 4th place in the consistently good Western Conference. Until there are legitimate signs of slippage, the team record is a positive in favor of Thibs, not a negative.

Thibodeau's not even at risk of being fired unless the Wolves start piling on the losses, and even then he has a good enough track record to stay at the helm. I'll ask this, how many *available* head coaches would actually be an upgrade? If the best you can come up with is David Fizdale or an unproven college name, then I'd wager we're better off staying with what he have now and building from there.