Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:I hope the Wolves have been clear with the Heat. Whiteside is not going to be part of this deal for the Wolves unless the Heat find some other team to take him. This isn't that complicated. We simply need to make it clear that if the Heat want Butler we'll have to end up with Richardson, Adebayo and another asset other than Whiteside. My preference would be to include Gorgui and get Tyler Johnson as the other asset. But I'd be open to other alternatives - even Waiters if Miami then includes a 1st round pick. There shouldn't have been any miscommunication or last-minute request for more by the Wolves. If that report is true, then the Wolves are really botching what should be a simply negotiation with the Heat.

In the meantime, the Wolves front office should be vigorously shopping Butler to multiple other teams - most notably, Memphis (for a Jaren Jackson package), Washington (for Porter or Beal), Philadelphia (for Covington & Saric or Covington & multiple picks).

None of this is really hard or complicated.

Here's the complicated part: none of your aforementioned dream deals will be close to happening. Nobody is overly pressed to want Butler and pay 90 cents on the dollar for it. The deals you want maybe would have been there in June. They won't be there now. Teams are about to enter the season liking the guys they have, trying to develop a chemistry we don't have, and willing to let things play themselves out. By the time teams see where they're at, Butler is strictly a rental at that point.

The easy solution is to let go of the POBO in charge because there's a major conflict of interest that Glen can't figure out. Furthermore, if I'm Thibodeau and I think I'm gonna get fired, I may just capitulate and take the crappiest deal simply because I know I'm dead man walking no matter what.

Taking such a strong stance against not taking Whiteside seems pretty inflexible to me. I guess Thibs is rubbing off on Lip. :)

LOL. Actually, I am Thibs. I post on this Board to challenge myself and express my self-loathing. :)

I agree with Lip that I would not necessarily mandate that Dieng has to be included in any Butler offer, especially since it could lower the player value we get back, however, since I don't love Miami's assets, I would push that a Dieng-for-Johnson swap be included. Johnson would be a lot more helpful for this team post-trade assuming Adebayo is included. There would be no minutes for Dieng here and his salary would just sit there.

I don't love it, and I think the Wolves would absolutely be right to aggressively request a first-round pick come back in return, but a trade that looks like Josh Richardson, Bam Adebayo, and Tyler Johnson for Jimmy Butler and Gorgui Dieng seems feasible and practical on both ends. Works financially and in terms of roster construction, both teams would remain balanced.

I think that's pretty much the "worst" of the available packages we should get back. Here's how we'd look after the fact.

PG: Jeff Teague / Tyus Jones
SG: Josh Richardson / Tyler Johnson
SF: Andrew Wiggins / -- --
PF: Taj Gibson / Anthony Tolliver
C: Karl-Anthony Towns / Bam Adebayo

I'd imagine Johnson would/could/should get 25 MPG easily in a rotation with Richardson and Wiggins. I also see several intriguing frontcourt combinations whether it be Gibson/Adebayo or Adebayo/Towns.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

crazysauce wrote:Dont forget olynyk can play center. I would guess it depends on how badly they want to rid themselves of whiteside. It sounds like things were a lot worse than most think. If he is a cancer they are likely desperate to move him.

Could be, Crazy. I read a bunch of prior local Miami press on Whiteside. One comment from Dwayne Wade was telling. Wade said about Whiteside, "Sometimes I just can't understand what he's thinking." And it's been widely reported that Riley has been trying to get rid of Whiteside but has failed to find any takers. So I don't know yet if I'd say Rileyis "desperate" to get rid of Whiteside. But no doubt he'd really like to rid his team of Whiteside and his obscene contract.

I was a person that said the team that signed Whiteside to a massive might regret doing so even if it made sense to take the chance on his talent...and here we are. It's likely part of the new season hype but there have been a number of articles saying Whiteside wasn't physically right last year especially down the stretch and in the playoffs. The way the Heat's roster is now (and last year) they have options to play at center so yes why not try and find someone who would take him? Obviously the contract is massive and hard to convince someone to take really any player for that much money even for a couple years but a center? Nope. The Wolves will have to take back a back contract in this deal. I can't remember whom brought it up but it was good to point out that Tyler Johnson has a trade kicker of 15% that adds to the fun of making a deal. He could waive it but why would he want to?

Monster - We'd only need to take a Whiteside or Tyler Johnson salary if we required Miami to take Gorgui as part of the deal -- which is why I continue to believe we shouldn't muck up the Butler deal by insisting on including Gorgui.

As for Tyler Johnson, I wasn't aware of the 15% trade kicker. I don't know if that's reflected in the ESPN trade machine. Do you know? In any event, we'd still be better off cap-wise taking Tyler Johnson rather that Whiteside for salary-match purposes in a Butler/Gorgui deal. I'm still convinced Miami would ultimately give us Richardson, Bam and Tyler Johnson for Butler and Gorgui. If not, I'm absolutely certain the Heat would give us Richardson, Whiteside and their 2019 1st rd pk without protection.

What do you think I'm right about what the Heat would be willing to give up? Would you take the Richardson/Whiteside/1st rd pk deal?

If Whiteside is having issues in a culture as strong as Miami's, then God knows it would only get worse in Minnesota.

This team doesn't have the strength of culture or leadership to assimilate anyone with question marks.

Q12543 wrote:If Whiteside is having issues in a culture as strong as Miami's, then God knows it would only get worse in Minnesota.

This team doesn't have the strength of culture or leadership to assimilate anyone with question marks.

So....do you want Waiters instead signed for 3 more seasons?

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

crazysauce wrote:Dont forget olynyk can play center. I would guess it depends on how badly they want to rid themselves of whiteside. It sounds like things were a lot worse than most think. If he is a cancer they are likely desperate to move him.

Could be, Crazy. I read a bunch of prior local Miami press on Whiteside. One comment from Dwayne Wade was telling. Wade said about Whiteside, "Sometimes I just can't understand what he's thinking." And it's been widely reported that Riley has been trying to get rid of Whiteside but has failed to find any takers. So I don't know yet if I'd say Rileyis "desperate" to get rid of Whiteside. But no doubt he'd really like to rid his team of Whiteside and his obscene contract.

I was a person that said the team that signed Whiteside to a massive might regret doing so even if it made sense to take the chance on his talent...and here we are. It's likely part of the new season hype but there have been a number of articles saying Whiteside wasn't physically right last year especially down the stretch and in the playoffs. The way the Heat's roster is now (and last year) they have options to play at center so yes why not try and find someone who would take him? Obviously the contract is massive and hard to convince someone to take really any player for that much money even for a couple years but a center? Nope. The Wolves will have to take back a back contract in this deal. I can't remember whom brought it up but it was good to point out that Tyler Johnson has a trade kicker of 15% that adds to the fun of making a deal. He could waive it but why would he want to?

Minister - We'd only need to take a Whiteside or Tyler Johnson salary if we required Miami to take Gorgui as part of the deal -- which is why I continue to believe we shouldn't muck up the Butler deal by insisting on including Gorgui.

As for Tyler Johnson, I wasn't aware of the 15% trade kicker. I don't know if that's reflected in the ESPN trade machine. Do you know? In any event, we'd still be better off cap-wise taking Tyler Johnson rather that Whiteside for salary-match purposes in a Butler/Gorgui deal. I'm still convinced Miami would ultimately give us Richardson, Bam and Tyler Johnson for Butler and Gorgui. If not, I'm absolutely certain the Heat would give us Richardson, Whiteside and their 2019 1st rd pk without protection.

What do you think I'm right about what the Heat would be willing to give up? Would you take the Richardson/Whiteside/1st rd pk deal?

If you want Richardson in the deal for Butler basically the only reasonable way of doing the deal without Dieng is if Waiters is included. That's 2 more seasons beyond this one for around 12 million per. That's a bigtime negative in terms of salary.

Which brings me to another point. People have reported Thibs wants all this stuff from Mina
I unborn child etc. That's kinda BS. Why? Any deal the Heat make is sending back a shitty contract. You take Tyler Johnson, Whiteside Waiters and try and trade those guys to any team and you would have to give up at minimum a 1st round pick to do so. Sure in some deals we would be getting rid of Dieng (who would take multiple picks to move as well) but even the most palatable guy Johnson will be making over 22 million the next 2 years after a trade kicker?!?!???? That's a lot of money. These are negative contracts and having to absorb those are negatives. Dieng isn't useless just overpaid just like the Miami guys. If we took back Whiteside for Dieng it actually would save the Heat a lot of money next season when it comes to lux tax etc.
So when it comes to moving Dieng it's more about not having to take back a different long term crappy contract like Waiters. It's not just about getting rid of Dieng.

As far as the trade kicker I forget how that affects the trade. It may not be part of the salaries that have to match. I'd have to look up the CBA FAQ to find out but that's

As for the deals you mentioned I like the Forst one better...without looking at what the money for next season would look like with adding Johnson and Richardson's 32 million to the books for 2019. Is that lux tax territory?

You can say the same for the Whiteside Richardson pick deal but again there is the possible buyout and stretch option and you don't have to have a guy taking up a roster spot after this season. I mean we could do it now but Whiteside is actually talented and has a player option for next year...I'd let things play out a bit and yes I do have concerns about Whiteside and the negatives around him. It is a downside to the trade moving Dieng for whiteside. It reminds me of some of the Kahn type moves getting rid of a decent but good guy player for a possible talented guy. I don't think Thibs has any manna from heaven illusions though! Lol anyway in that trade you come out with Richardson and a 1st round pick. That doesn't sound too bad especially when one way or another you save SOME salary money in a swap of Whiteside and Dieng. It feels like we should get something more in that deal even a 2nd round pick. The good part of that deal would be we would still have a roster spot that could be used or it keeps us from dumping a guy like Nunnally who I want to see get a shot at some point.

Camden0916 wrote:I agree with Lip that I would not necessarily mandate that Dieng has to be included in any Butler offer, especially since it could lower the player value we get back, however, since I don't love Miami's assets, I would push that a Dieng-for-Johnson swap be included. Johnson would be a lot more helpful for this team post-trade assuming Adebayo is included. There would be no minutes for Dieng here and his salary would just sit there.

I don't love it, and I think the Wolves would absolutely be right to aggressively request a first-round pick come back in return, but a trade that looks like Josh Richardson, Bam Adebayo, and Tyler Johnson for Jimmy Butler and Gorgui Dieng seems feasible and practical on both ends. Works financially and in terms of roster construction, both teams would remain balanced.

I think that's pretty much the "worst" of the available packages we should get back. Here's how we'd look after the fact.

PG: Jeff Teague / Tyus Jones
SG: Josh Richardson / Tyler Johnson
SF: Andrew Wiggins / -- --
PF: Taj Gibson / Anthony Tolliver
C: Karl-Anthony Towns / Bam Adebayo

I'd imagine Johnson would/could/should get 25 MPG easily in a rotation with Richardson and Wiggins. I also see several intriguing frontcourt combinations whether it be Gibson/Adebayo or Adebayo/Towns.

I could get relatively excited about that deal. 2 functional players plus a young asset in Bam isn't that far off of what we have up...depending on how you value various players their fit in the roster and salaries etc etc etc. it would also give a bit more potential for flexibility in terms of salaries going forward than before the deal.

So I was playing with trade machine and what about something like this.

Wolves get

Richardson
Dragic
Whiteside
Adebayo


Heat get

Butler
Teague
Dieng
Gibson


Break down separate and you have Butler for Richardson

Teague and Dragic are needed to make trade work but are similar.

Whiteside for Dieng bad contract for bad contract

Gibson for Adebayo the heat get a win now guy and wolves get a youngin to work with there youth.


Not to mention Gibson Butler and Teague are really tight. Gibson seems like a riley type of guy too. Who says no and why?

crazysauce wrote:So I was playing with trade machine and what about something like this.

Wolves get

Richardson
Dragic
Whiteside
Adebayo


Heat get

Butler
Teague
Dieng
Gibson


Break down separate and you have Butler for Richardson

Teague and Dragic are needed to make trade work but are similar.

Whiteside for Dieng bad contract for bad contract

Gibson for Adebayo the heat get a win now guy and wolves get a youngin to work with there youth.

Not to mention Gibson Butler and Teague are really tight. Gibson seems like a riley type of guy too. Who says no and why?

It's unlikely for two reasons.

1. Eight player trades don't happen often and a lot has to be communicated in order to pull it off. Considering Pat Riley's consistent use of the media and overall dysfunction between Minnesota and Miami's leadership, I don't see both sides being able to agree on this many moving pieces.

2. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but my thought process was that Miami would be trading for Jimmy Butler to pair him with Goran Dragic in the backcourt -- not trade Dragic away in the process. Having a formidable guard tandem can win you a lot of games solely on just that. Obviously, Curry and Thompson come to mind. Toronto was a perennial contender in the East primarily because of Lowry and DeRozan. We even saw Portland go on a tear to end last season on the backs of Lillard and to a lesser extent McCollum. I think you get what I'm presenting. I believe that's what Pat Riley's vision is.

I thought i had heard reports that dragic has already been offered and always been on table. Feel this gets everyone what they want.