Minnesota Sports Forum

I like basketball too much to buy into the "championship or bust" mentality.

It's not a feasible position for most NBA teams. Small market teams in really cold cities included. It's simply not how the league is designed. And it's certainly not how the players are currently making moves.

Years ago, it was ok for a team like Utah to be good to very good, but not champions, for many years. It was still entertaining and fun. After all, winning is always more fun than losing.

Somewhere along the line, the championship or bust angle became the only way to judge NBA players or teams. Fair enough. But I just don't think it's the only way.

The Wolves are in an even dicier position as the 2nd worst franchise in NBA history. We've been through a lot of losing. So to tell me we have to go back to the annual Promise of Hope campaigns just so we can pray for the luckiest of lucky draft picks?

Meh.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I like basketball too much to buy into the "championship or bust" mentality.

It's not a feasible position for most NBA teams. Small market teams in really cold cities included. It's simply not how the league is designed. And it's certainly not how the players are currently making moves.

Years ago, it was ok for a team like Utah to be good to very good, but not champions, for many years. It was still entertaining and fun. After all, winning is always more fun than losing.

Somewhere along the line, the championship or bust angle became the only way to judge NBA players or teams. Fair enough. But I just don't think it's the only way.

The Wolves are in an even dicier position as the 2nd worst franchise in NBA history. We've been through a lot of losing. So to tell me we have to go back to the annual Promise of Hope campaigns just so we can pray for the luckiest of lucky draft picks?

Meh.

Those Utah teams were most certainly championship contenders. Just because they didn't win one doesn't change that. More importantly, while there were favorites to win it all, it wasn't a given like it is today with the Warriors. It may have been an uphill battle to beat the Jordan era Bulls or Magic era Lakers, but it wasn't a virtual impossibility like it is today.

If you're telling me the Wolves do not now, and never will have a realistic chance at winning it all for reasons beyond their own incompetence then screw it, I have better things to waste my time on. This is the very same reason I haven't watched the Twins in just about forever. A great Twins season is one in which they make the playoffs and get sent home by the Yankees... every... single.... time. The NFL and NHL remain fun because you can believe that your team can win it all, even if they never do.

TheSP wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I like basketball too much to buy into the "championship or bust" mentality.

It's not a feasible position for most NBA teams. Small market teams in really cold cities included. It's simply not how the league is designed. And it's certainly not how the players are currently making moves.

Years ago, it was ok for a team like Utah to be good to very good, but not champions, for many years. It was still entertaining and fun. After all, winning is always more fun than losing.

Somewhere along the line, the championship or bust angle became the only way to judge NBA players or teams. Fair enough. But I just don't think it's the only way.

The Wolves are in an even dicier position as the 2nd worst franchise in NBA history. We've been through a lot of losing. So to tell me we have to go back to the annual Promise of Hope campaigns just so we can pray for the luckiest of lucky draft picks?

Meh.

Those Utah teams were most certainly championship contenders. Just because they didn't win one doesn't change that. More importantly, while there were favorites to win it all, it wasn't a given like it is today with the Warriors. It may have been an uphill battle to beat the Jordan era Bulls or Magic era Lakers, but it wasn't a virtual impossibility like it is today.

If you're telling me the Wolves do not now, and never will have a realistic chance at winning it all for reasons beyond their own incompetence then screw it, I have better things to waste my time on. This is the very same reason I haven't watched the Twins in just about forever. A great Twins season is one in which they make the playoffs and get sent home by the Yankees... every... single.... time. The NFL and NHL remain fun because you can believe that your team can win it all, even if they never do.

The Bulls championship teams never went 7 games. That has already happened during the Warriors dynasty. I'd say the Bulls were a certainty in that era as much as the Warriors are now.

thedoper wrote:

TheSP wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I like basketball too much to buy into the "championship or bust" mentality.

It's not a feasible position for most NBA teams. Small market teams in really cold cities included. It's simply not how the league is designed. And it's certainly not how the players are currently making moves.

Years ago, it was ok for a team like Utah to be good to very good, but not champions, for many years. It was still entertaining and fun. After all, winning is always more fun than losing.

Somewhere along the line, the championship or bust angle became the only way to judge NBA players or teams. Fair enough. But I just don't think it's the only way.

The Wolves are in an even dicier position as the 2nd worst franchise in NBA history. We've been through a lot of losing. So to tell me we have to go back to the annual Promise of Hope campaigns just so we can pray for the luckiest of lucky draft picks?

Meh.

Those Utah teams were most certainly championship contenders. Just because they didn't win one doesn't change that. More importantly, while there were favorites to win it all, it wasn't a given like it is today with the Warriors. It may have been an uphill battle to beat the Jordan era Bulls or Magic era Lakers, but it wasn't a virtual impossibility like it is today.

If you're telling me the Wolves do not now, and never will have a realistic chance at winning it all for reasons beyond their own incompetence then screw it, I have better things to waste my time on. This is the very same reason I haven't watched the Twins in just about forever. A great Twins season is one in which they make the playoffs and get sent home by the Yankees... every... single.... time. The NFL and NHL remain fun because you can believe that your team can win it all, even if they never do.

The Bulls championship teams never went 7 games. That has already happened during the Warriors dynasty. I'd say the Bulls were a certainty in that era as much as the Warriors are now.

The Bulls team had the then best player on the planet, the Warriors played against the team with the current best player on the planet multiple times and lost once.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:If you're a Wolves fan, these are your only 2 choices:

1. continue to suck and dream about the future

2. try to make the playoffs and deal with reality.

the option of "go for that championship" isn't there, so always go with trying for a playoff berth and the Butler trade.

If you really believe that, what motivates you to waste your time following the team? I mean if I have no chance of hooking up with Jennifer Aniston, I'm not going to spend years trying. I'll find a new endeavor.

To answer your question, I lowered my expectations of this team a while ago and watch the games with more detachment than I'd like to. It sucks as a fan to do that, but I also don't enjoy being emotionally invested in something that I know is gonna cause me great aggravation without a big goal in mind. I'm not gonna hold this team to standards they're incapable of reaching, and nearly 30 years of this team they've shown their only elite quality is losing. I treat them like those mid majors in small conferences in college who finally get to go to the NCAA Tournament. The season's a success even if they get pummeled in the play-in game because that's the ceiling those teams have.


As for your example, just because you can't get with Jennifer Aniston doesn't mean you're gonna give up on women. It's just that the available options you have to choose from aren't great, to the point where the painfully average chick is your goal now, since you're not gonna do better than that minus a major transformation (in this case, a franchise overhaul of culture and philosophy that honestly starts with an owner who isn't Glen Taylor)

I get it and i don't disagree with you.

Allow me to clarify on something Monster said. For me it's really not a championship or bust mentality. But you better have a plan in place that is at least pointed toward the top. Trading for Jimmy Butler and signing as many of his ex teammates as you can isn't it.

To Wildwolf's point, this team lacks leadership from the top on down. And until that get's fixed you're probably right in that we can't aspire to be a true contenderTo Wildwolf's point, this team lacks leadership from the top on down. And until that get's fixed you're probably right in that we can't aspire to be a true contender.

agree with this point wholeheartedly. The leadership and direction is nonexistent right now. I think the Thibs hiring was supposed to bring it and he said all the right things about growth and needing time with the young core. However, it took one season for him to squash those plans and went into win now mode with a bunch of young kids.

Secondly, Jimmy was brought in to be that leader/mentor figure for the likes of KAT and Wiggs, but that backfired. Jimmy loves the idea of being the captain, but not the patience to lead. And Im not sure he wants anyone else besides himself of having that role of alpha.

I think thats the real purpose of deng. If jimmy isnt going to teach, why not bring in the guy that helped jimmy grow.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:If you're a Wolves fan, these are your only 2 choices:

1. continue to suck and dream about the future

2. try to make the playoffs and deal with reality.

the option of "go for that championship" isn't there, so always go with trying for a playoff berth and the Butler trade.

If you really believe that, what motivates you to waste your time following the team? I mean if I have no chance of hooking up with Jennifer Aniston, I'm not going to spend years trying. I'll find a new endeavor.

I think he's saying if you can't hook up with Jennifer Anniston, you shouldn't give up on Courtney Cox. Not that hooking up with Jennifer Anniston is the championship.

For me, hooking up with Jennifer Anniston is barely making the playoffs and getting swept in the first round. Just slightly worse than the Wolves last season.

Haha. You must be a lot better looking than me.

lol. Not likely. I've just never found her attractive. Part of it is her personality.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:If you're a Wolves fan, these are your only 2 choices:

1. continue to suck and dream about the future

2. try to make the playoffs and deal with reality.

the option of "go for that championship" isn't there, so always go with trying for a playoff berth and the Butler trade.

If you really believe that, what motivates you to waste your time following the team? I mean if I have no chance of hooking up with Jennifer Aniston, I'm not going to spend years trying. I'll find a new endeavor.

To answer your question, I lowered my expectations of this team a while ago and watch the games with more detachment than I'd like to. It sucks as a fan to do that, but I also don't enjoy being emotionally invested in something that I know is gonna cause me great aggravation without a big goal in mind. I'm not gonna hold this team to standards they're incapable of reaching, and nearly 30 years of this team they've shown their only elite quality is losing. I treat them like those mid majors in small conferences in college who finally get to go to the NCAA Tournament. The season's a success even if they get pummeled in the play-in game because that's the ceiling those teams have.


As for your example, just because you can't get with Jennifer Aniston doesn't mean you're gonna give up on women. It's just that the available options you have to choose from aren't great, to the point where the painfully average chick is your goal now, since you're not gonna do better than that minus a major transformation (in this case, a franchise overhaul of culture and philosophy that honestly starts with an owner who isn't Glen Taylor)

I get it and i don't disagree with you.

Allow me to clarify on something Monster said. For me it's really not a championship or bust mentality. But you better have a plan in place that is at least pointed toward the top. Trading for Jimmy Butler and signing as many of his ex teammates as you can isn't it.

To Wildwolf's point, this team lacks leadership from the top on down. And until that get's fixed you're probably right in that we can't aspire to be a true contender.

I agree, Cool. It's not championship or bust; that's not a realistic approach. But I think you put it well with your comment that "you better have a plan in place that is at least pointed toward the top." Absolutely right. The Celtics and Sixers clearly have such a plan. The Warriors had that sort of plan as they drafted Curry, Green, Thompson and Harrison Barnes. They kept competently identifying and then drafting young talent. They parlayed Barnes into other assets while remaining patient with Curry as he struggled through early ankle issues. They made a nice strategic acquisition of Iggy while he was still in his prime, but he wasn't acquired as a centerpiece but instead as a complementary piece to go along with their young core. That's a smart, coherent plan pointing in the right direction.

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:If you're a Wolves fan, these are your only 2 choices:

1. continue to suck and dream about the future

2. try to make the playoffs and deal with reality.

the option of "go for that championship" isn't there, so always go with trying for a playoff berth and the Butler trade.

If you really believe that, what motivates you to waste your time following the team? I mean if I have no chance of hooking up with Jennifer Aniston, I'm not going to spend years trying. I'll find a new endeavor.

To answer your question, I lowered my expectations of this team a while ago and watch the games with more detachment than I'd like to. It sucks as a fan to do that, but I also don't enjoy being emotionally invested in something that I know is gonna cause me great aggravation without a big goal in mind. I'm not gonna hold this team to standards they're incapable of reaching, and nearly 30 years of this team they've shown their only elite quality is losing. I treat them like those mid majors in small conferences in college who finally get to go to the NCAA Tournament. The season's a success even if they get pummeled in the play-in game because that's the ceiling those teams have.


As for your example, just because you can't get with Jennifer Aniston doesn't mean you're gonna give up on women. It's just that the available options you have to choose from aren't great, to the point where the painfully average chick is your goal now, since you're not gonna do better than that minus a major transformation (in this case, a franchise overhaul of culture and philosophy that honestly starts with an owner who isn't Glen Taylor)

I get it and i don't disagree with you.

Allow me to clarify on something Monster said. For me it's really not a championship or bust mentality. But you better have a plan in place that is at least pointed toward the top. Trading for Jimmy Butler and signing as many of his ex teammates as you can isn't it.

To Wildwolf's point, this team lacks leadership from the top on down. And until that get's fixed you're probably right in that we can't aspire to be a true contender.

I agree, Cool. It's not championship or bust; that's not a realistic approach. But I think you put it well with your comment that "you better have a plan in place that is at least pointed toward the top." Absolutely right. The Celtics and Sixers clearly have such a plan. The Warriors had that sort of plan as they drafted Curry, Green, Thompson and Harrison Barnes. They kept competently identifying and then drafting young talent. They parlayed Barnes into other assets while remaining patient with Curry as he struggled through early ankle issues. They made a nice strategic acquisition of Iggy while he was still in his prime, but he wasn't acquired as a centerpiece but instead as a complementary piece to go along with their young core. That's a smart, coherent plan pointing in the right direction.

I think we had a plan, just as good as the sixers and warriors. First off all the celtics had the early advantage because they were good so they could turn their aging assets into draft picks. Something the wolves never had the opportunity to do because we didn't have good assets.

It all comes to drafting well. If the celtics draft Dunn over brown or fultz over Tatum they are in a different spot. The wolves would have never were in the position to acquire Horford.

Sixers drafted 2 franchise changing players. In simmons and Embiid. Celtics drafted Tatum and brown who look like they can be franchise players and they are Boston they can sign elite free agents something the wolves never have and more than likely never will be able to sign elite free agents like Boston.

Now with the wolves we have drafted 2 franchise players in the last 13 years. In KAT and love (not in the same timetable). We drafted Wes Johnson over paul George because Kahn thought he would get destroyed by the media. We selected Flynn and Rubio over Curry. Traded Roy for Foye. Picked Dunn over Murray. Theoretically Flip made really bad picks in to what could have been, i'm guessing we could of had Embiid over Wiggins. The Bazz/ gorgui draft could have been the greak Freak/ gobert/ Roberson , all one pick away and sold a pick. We selected lavine over Gary Harris. We traded an asset in Thad Young for a year of mentor KG, instead of a future asset. Traded a pick for Payne who could get out of the hawks G League.

In the end we had a plan, develop young talent but we have not been able to find that other franchise player. Thibs thought Wiggins could be that guy, it's not looking good. Kat hasn't taken that top 5 player in the NBA step. If those guys made those steps we are in the same spot as the celts and sixers. I'm guessing we would be trying to sign kyrie this upcoming offseason. But in the end our young guys didn't develop or not as good as those other 2 teams.

It's been front office after front office who have been bad drafters and that is why we are where we are today

Our franchise success needs KAT to become top 5 player in the league and Wiggins to be an All-star. Golden State's 1st year with Iggy they lost in the first round to the clippers. Then Curry became mvp the next year and the rest is history. The development of our young guys will always define this team, I'll even throw Gourgi and Tyus into that mix. If those guys keep getting better we're fine. Butler can either stay and be part of something good or walk if that is the case. Based on what KAT has done so far and MVP type season would not surprise me this year just like I was trying to write in the other thread.

thedoper wrote:Our franchise success needs KAT to become top 5 player in the league and Wiggins to be an All-star. Golden State's 1st year with Iggy they lost in the first round to the clippers. Then Curry became mvp the next year and the rest is history. The development of our young guys will always define this team, I'll even throw Gourgi and Tyus into that mix. If those guys keep getting better we're fine. Butler can either stay and be part of something good or walk if that is the case. Based on what KAT has done so far and MVP type season would not surprise me this year just like I was trying to write in the other thread.

I agree, Doper. The only thing I'd add is that trading for Butler didn't fit with what I'd consider a coherent, optimal plan because of the age gap and the limited length of Butler's contractual commitment to the team. We still don't know how good LaVine or Dunn will become. We don't know how good Markkenan will ultimately be, but we already know how good Donovan Mitchell. An optimal coherent plan would have been to continue using our lottery picks and showing patience with the picks we already made to build around KAT and Wiggins. An optimal plan would have included hiring a coach suited to the modern NBA and the nature of today's young players. No guarantee it would have worked, but it would have made sense over the long haul, especially in a Conference the Warriors will likely dominate for the next few years.

We can't expect every pick to pan out. Things happen. For example, Marbury unexpectedly forced his way out, but the Wolves ended up signing Billups. It wasn't clear at the time, but Billups paired with Garnett would have eventually put the Wolves back on the track they have been on with Marbury. Unfortunately the Wolves let Billups go in favor of Terrell Brandon as the team's starting PG. The smart move then would have been to keep Billups who was about the same age as KG. The point is that you keep drafting and developing until you get it right. When Flip was here, he had the good fortune and good sense to draft KAT. He also parlayed Love into Wiggins who became rookie of the years. Thibodeau inherited both in addition to LaVine and the 6th pick in the NBA draft. His focus should have been on adding young talent to the talented trio he inherited and acquiring young talent with the two high lottery picks he had his first two drafts.

There's room for disagreement on this, but what I described above would be my notion of a sensible, coherent plan pointing in the right direction. Unfortunately, in my view, Thibodeau himself was the wrong choice to take us in the right direction.