Camden wrote:Monster, I wish I shared the same optimism with our point guard group, but I'm just not as sure about it as I was perhaps a year ago. Rubio playing very poorly likely has a lot to do with that. I also have less faith in Dunn than others here. More importantly, I'm growing impatient with our point guard play overall.
Also, the more I watch this offense centered around LaVine and Wiggins as primary ball-handlers, it makes me believe that our point guard should be a good player without the ball, which is why Dragic came to mind since we've seen him play with other high usage backcourt mates in Phoenix. I know he's already over 30-years old, but I think there's still plenty of good basketball left in him. And his veteran savvy would be great on a team full of young guys who haven't won yet.
I agree that I don't feel that good about the PGs but they are here and 2 of them are still quite young. I am not against bringing in another player particularly one like you said that would work well off the ball. My point was there is no reason to be looking to trade Wiggins or Lavine to plug that hole. Heck the Wolves might be able to sign a decent FA to fill that void. Just throwing out a name...Darren Collison could work and he can play with other guys if Dunn or Tyus figures things out. Collison could cost a lot though (relatively speaking) but there will be some options out there looking at who could be available in FA. We shall see what happens. if the Wolves really only need a complimentary PG thats a lot easier to figure out.
BizarroJerry wrote:Again, who gives a shit if Wiggins gets 4 or 6 rebounds. Half of the boards you get falls in your lap.
He was 2-19 the other night, his shot is terrible and he doesn't hustle. No way do I want him as my starting SG.
I agree. His lack of hustle has been far too common with Wiggins the past 2 seasons and through the past 4 games this season. He reminds me of the kid in right field constantly day-dreaming. The guy really seems to tune out for major stretches repeatedly during games. Coupled with his inconsistent shooting game to game and his still suspect ball-handling, he shouldn't be our starting SG in place of Zach. I have far more confidence in Zach game to game. His talent level is tremendous, but he is a very frustrating player who seems poised to disappoint all of us.
Camden wrote:VORP, BPM, WS/48, PER... LaVine holds the major advanced statistics (that we frequently go to) in his favor this season. There's not much that Wiggins has been clearly better at and that matches what I've seen on the floor.
Good stuff, Cam...thanks for that. Very good support for Zach I have to admit. I'm swayed, but still not convinced that he is not better off the bench...and the one stat I look at is ultimately the most important one: the scoreboard. At the end of the day you win by scoring more points than your opponent, and Zach is the second worse on the team by that measure. I continue to think he could be a positive plus/minus monster if he were put in a super sub role.
According RPM that is based on plus minuses but somehow considers also the effect other players on floor have to players numbers, ranks also Zach (-0.61) higher than Wiggins (-2.05).
khans2k5 wrote:They're both 21 and they are both going to be monsters in this league. I'm not trading either unless I'm getting a superstar PG back. I don't care about individual rebounding stats. Are we losing games because our SF isn't get 4 more rebounds per game? No. They both need to start and play with each other and build the continuity that pays dividends down the line. There's too much focus on now because we're all disappointed in this season and want to turn it around now. That's not the right play. The right play is to keep building continuity with the big 3 and shift pieces around them when needed.
Well said. As long as our team rebounding numbers are solid I could care less whether Andrew averages 4 or 6 boards per game.
Our team rebounding unfortunately isn't good right now, but I think everyone (with the exception of Dieng) is capable of helping more on that end so I don't put it all on Wiggins. That responsibility falls on everyone and not just Wiggins.
Based on stats Wolves are currently 4th best rebounding team in whole NBA. Behind only Denver, Houston and Chicago. So I think their overall team rebounding has been just fine even tough their defensive rebounding has been little below average.
khans2k5 wrote:They're both 21 and they are both going to be monsters in this league. I'm not trading either unless I'm getting a superstar PG back. I don't care about individual rebounding stats. Are we losing games because our SF isn't get 4 more rebounds per game? No. They both need to start and play with each other and build the continuity that pays dividends down the line. There's too much focus on now because we're all disappointed in this season and want to turn it around now. That's not the right play. The right play is to keep building continuity with the big 3 and shift pieces around them when needed.
Well said. As long as our team rebounding numbers are solid I could care less whether Andrew averages 4 or 6 boards per game.
Our team rebounding unfortunately isn't good right now, but I think everyone (with the exception of Dieng) is capable of helping more on that end so I don't put it all on Wiggins. That responsibility falls on everyone and not just Wiggins.
Right, but Wiggins is obviously the worst relative to his peers at that position. Now if we had two monster rebounders up front, it wouldn't matter as much. But because everyone else is average-ish on the boards, his lack of rebounding is a problem.
I also think SG is better simply because it just makes us bigger overall, which in turn I think could help us defensively, so this is not just about his lack of rebounding.
I was just going to post a similar thought. We do tend to focus on Andrew's anemic rebounding stats, but it's just one piece of the puzzle. We do become a much better rebounding team if someone like Belly starts and pushes Wig to SG...that upgrades our rebounding at 2 positions, because I would argue that Wig is at least an adequate rebounder for a 2. But the real value is the length it provides us. I don't know if it was as apparent on TV as it was live, but the height advantage we enjoyed over the Lakers the night Zach and Bazz were out was extraordinary...and it gave us a big advantage on both ends of the court. Wig's height clearly frustrated any 2 that he was guarding, and he was drooling all game about the advantage he held over the guys who had to guard him...the result was 47 points. And Belly's 8 rebounds were a welcome change at the 3. Now, Belly looked good defending Luol Deng...a good matchup for him. But while he is clearly quicker this year than last, the jury is still out on whether he can guard SFs every night. I'd like to give him a chance though.
I think it gave us advantage mainly just because Walton refused to use Deng for defending Wiggins. In next game when Wiggins and Belly were playing as wings, Charlotte used always bigger and better defending wing to defend Wiggins. I believe same would happen routinely also against other teams since Belly isn't able to really capitalize his size advantage against smaller defenders.
khans2k5 wrote:They're both 21 and they are both going to be monsters in this league. I'm not trading either unless I'm getting a superstar PG back. I don't care about individual rebounding stats. Are we losing games because our SF isn't get 4 more rebounds per game? No. They both need to start and play with each other and build the continuity that pays dividends down the line. There's too much focus on now because we're all disappointed in this season and want to turn it around now. That's not the right play. The right play is to keep building continuity with the big 3 and shift pieces around them when needed.
Well said. As long as our team rebounding numbers are solid I could care less whether Andrew averages 4 or 6 boards per game.
Our team rebounding unfortunately isn't good right now, but I think everyone (with the exception of Dieng) is capable of helping more on that end so I don't put it all on Wiggins. That responsibility falls on everyone and not just Wiggins.
Right, but Wiggins is obviously the worst relative to his peers at that position. Now if we had two monster rebounders up front, it wouldn't matter as much. But because everyone else is average-ish on the boards, his lack of rebounding is a problem.
I also think SG is better simply because it just makes us bigger overall, which in turn I think could help us defensively, so this is not just about his lack of rebounding.
I was just going to post a similar thought. We do tend to focus on Andrew's anemic rebounding stats, but it's just one piece of the puzzle. We do become a much better rebounding team if someone like Belly starts and pushes Wig to SG...that upgrades our rebounding at 2 positions, because I would argue that Wig is at least an adequate rebounder for a 2. But the real value is the length it provides us. I don't know if it was as apparent on TV as it was live, but the height advantage we enjoyed over the Lakers the night Zach and Bazz were out was extraordinary...and it gave us a big advantage on both ends of the court. Wig's height clearly frustrated any 2 that he was guarding, and he was drooling all game about the advantage he held over the guys who had to guard him...the result was 47 points. And Belly's 8 rebounds were a welcome change at the 3. Now, Belly looked good defending Luol Deng...a good matchup for him. But while he is clearly quicker this year than last, the jury is still out on whether he can guard SFs every night. I'd like to give him a chance though.
I think it gave us advantage mainly just because Walton refused to use Deng for defending Wiggins. In next game when Wiggins and Belly were playing as wings, Charlotte used always bigger and better defending wing to defend Wiggins. I believe same would happen routinely also against other teams since Belly isn't able to really capitalize his size advantage against smaller defenders.
I don't know, Mikkeman...I think the contrast in the Lakers and the subsequent Charlotte game supports my point. I was excited after the Lakers game, because despite the absence of offensively-gifted Zach, our length advantage turned the game into a mismatch...and Wig was dominant at both ends. But then Zach returned and Wig returned to SF, and we put up a clunker against the Hornets. I was enormously frustrated after that game, as it sucked out of me all the optimism that the Lakers game had given me. That 2-game swing was exactly when I started thinking Wig belonged at SG.
Mikkeman wrote:
I think it gave us advantage mainly just because Walton refused to use Deng for defending Wiggins. In next game when Wiggins and Belly were playing as wings, Charlotte used always bigger and better defending wing to defend Wiggins. I believe same would happen routinely also against other teams since Belly isn't able to really capitalize his size advantage against smaller defenders.
I don't know, Mikkeman...I think the contrast in the Lakers and the subsequent Charlotte game supports my point. I was excited after the Lakers game, because despite the absence of offensively-gifted Zach, our length advantage turned the game into a mismatch...and Wig was dominant at both ends. But then Zach returned and Wig returned to SF, and we put up a clunker against the Hornets. I was enormously frustrated after that game, as it sucked out of me all the optimism that the Lakers game had given me. That 2-game swing was exactly when I started thinking Wig belonged at SG.
In Charlotte game Belly played 21 minutes and all those minutes were as small forward. Wiggins played 42 minutes, so they played at least 15 together. I remember that I saw for example Batum defending Wiggins and Belinelli on Bjelica. Despite the enormous size advantage Belly didn't take any inside shots since all his 4 FG attempts were three pointers. I think that if Belly would be promoted to small forward, most of the opponents would still opt to use their bigger and better defender on Wiggins and leave shooting guard defending Belly since he dosn't have much post up game. This would remove most of the advantage that Wiggins would have when playing two instead of three. I agree that team would be better in defensive boards with Bjelica instead of Zach but without Zach's speed, they wouldn't be able to use much of those fast break opportunities.
Also currently with Wiggins and Zach Wolves have a possibility to attack also the weaker wing defender in case opponent has just one good wing defender on floor. For example when we play Toronto Carroll will most probably defend Wiggins and DeRozan Lavine. Since DeRozan is much worse defender than Carroll, Wolves could target him and play more through Lavine. If Lavine is really efficient and they switch Cartroll for him, Wolves could always go back to attack DeRozan by giving ball to Wiggins. With Belly as a starter that wouldn't be possible. Or if Wolves would try to exploit potential mismatch that Belly has, it could be just what opponent wants since he is much less gifted offensive player than Wiggins or Lavine.
khans2k5 wrote:They're both 21 and they are both going to be monsters in this league. I'm not trading either unless I'm getting a superstar PG back. I don't care about individual rebounding stats. Are we losing games because our SF isn't get 4 more rebounds per game? No. They both need to start and play with each other and build the continuity that pays dividends down the line. There's too much focus on now because we're all disappointed in this season and want to turn it around now. That's not the right play. The right play is to keep building continuity with the big 3 and shift pieces around them when needed.
Well said. As long as our team rebounding numbers are solid I could care less whether Andrew averages 4 or 6 boards per game.
Our team rebounding unfortunately isn't good right now, but I think everyone (with the exception of Dieng) is capable of helping more on that end so I don't put it all on Wiggins. That responsibility falls on everyone and not just Wiggins.
Based on stats Wolves are currently 4th best rebounding team in whole NBA. Behind only Denver, Houston and Chicago. So I think their overall team rebounding has been just fine even tough their defensive rebounding has been little below average.
What stats are you looking at because ESPN has our total team rebounds per game at 27th in the league so I find it hard to believe we are a top 5 rebounding team by percentage, etc. when we are bringing down the 27th most boards per game. That would mean almost every team we play has a sub-par rebounding game against us.
Khans, The reason why we are so low in total rebounds is because relative to other teams, our offense makes a fairly good rate of baskets AND our defense yields a fairly high rate of baskets. Therefore, in games we play, there are fewer total misses on both ends of the court, therefore fewer rebounds on both sides.
That's why it's important to look at rebound %. We are 4th in offensive rebounding % and 17th in defensive rebounding %. One may say that being 4th is a good thing, but I wonder how often us crashing the offensive glass leads to easy points in transition?
