Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

Yet, there have been only three significant changes from last season:

1. The core young guys are older and more experienced, which should make the team better.'

2. We've added bench strength in the form of players who have performed well as bench players elsewhere and who are still in their prime years, which should make the team better

3. Thibs replaced Sam Mitchell as our head coach.

How can we possibly hold Thibs responsible for the teams' pathetic season so far (about 25% into the season)?? How silly of those who would do so.

Lip, those three things have changed, but they're not the only three things that have changed.

I speculate that one of the major things that changed is the level of expectations on the team (particularly KAT). That's resulted in us tightening up at times in some of the early games when the opposition was cutting into our leads, and the early losses have resulted in us tightening up even more, and the spiral downwards leaves us right here.

From my experience in sport, the mental side of things is so important. Some of the most successful teams I've played on just clicked, and we really exceeded expectations. Sometimes, I've been in teams where our talent level just didn't gel, and we underachieved. And as an extra point, some of those more successful teams had a hard-ass coach who absolutely smashed us verbally and ran us into the ground.

If you want another example of how things can just click, or how they can grind down, compare our performances in the middle of last year (a stretch of 7-22) versus the end of last year (our beloved 10-10 stretch). I know that Zach was inserted into the starting lineup at that time, but I also speculate that we just had nothing to lose and so we played 'free and easy'.

I think the expectations on us this year have bee and major cause of the underperformance. Everyone seems to agree that KAT has regressed. He probably has the greatest level of expectation (some self imposed). I think we still see the talent this team has. Before the season had snowballed down into another disappointment, we were playing some patches of outstanding basketball. We probably still don't have the religions under Thibs to be able to execute instinctively, so we tighten how too much. We lack the toughness or veteran presence to grind through it when things go against us.

I think the talent is the toughest thing to put together. I still believe Thibs has the credentials to lead us to be successful, but dam it's been disappointing to see another season down the drain.

Camden wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Camden wrote:Q, let's say you're the new manager at an Olive Garden. You're the top dog, basically. You've been in the restaurant business for 20+ years. You've held different roles in different restaurants and everywhere you go, that particular business gets better -- more successful -- and part of that is because of your involvement. You just left IHOP after being one of the most profitable restaurants in the region for years to take on even more responsibility for a different franchise.

This Olive Garden you joined has struggled to succeed for decades, but they recently hired employees currently still in high school. These employees are quite smart, very personable, and physically capable of doing anything within the food industry. The only problem is that this is their first real job. They have little to no experience in the workplace.

You let them know their roles and responsibilities in order to create a successful work environment and a profitable store. Again, this isn't your first time. You know what it takes. You've been there, done that. Here's the problem: your immature, inexperienced employees aren't following instructions through your first couple of months. The restaurant is directly being affected by their mishaps and you're not profiting like you're used to.

Why would you, the manager, change your plan? You don't even know if the plan you put in place is the actual problem because your employees fail to comply and execute it! Also, why aren't they instead held accountable, and if they continue to come up short, shouldn't they be under consideration to be replaced by those who will actually do what you ask of them?

Creative analogy, but you wrote it with the premise that I was implicating Thibs (i.e. the new manager) in this case. But you finally started to get at an answer in that last paragraph.

So, back to my question. Thibs isn't going anywhere and he's not changing his ways - I get that. So IF this team flounders the rest of the year, what would you do this offseason?

The same thing I wanted us to do this past off-season. Be aggressive in free agency and trades in search of productive veteran players. The only "problem" is that our cap situation is less easier to deal with this summer compared to last. As we know, however, pieces can always be rearranged in order to complete the puzzle, or get a certain deal done.

Yeah, I guess my question is whether Thibs sticks with his big three or thinks about putting any of those guys in play if it helps land a big name veteran.

Assuming he doesn't move any of the big three, then we absolutely need to find a big man that can defend (which may involve trading Dieng or demoting him to the bench where he can compete with Aldrich for minutes) and a wing that can defend (to take Bazz's place, who will likely leave via free agency).

I'm assuming Rubio will be gone and Dunn gets promoted to the starting lineup at some point:

Starters:
KAT
Big name vet that can defend
Wiggins
LaVine
Dunn

Bench:
Aldrich or Dieng
Bjelica
Vet wing that can defend
Jones

We'll be able to create the cap space necessary to go after Serge Ibaka seriously. The question is will we be aggressive in doing so, or will we do so at all?

I've always liked Ibaka, but I don't see him as part of i0othe answer to this teams' woes. He's not the same player he once was. He's still a good shot-blocker at 1.9 per game, but not what he once was. He's averaging only 6.6 rebounds per game, less than Gorgui with 8 per game and KAT at over 10. We need a guy inside like an Andre Jordan or Drummond to really shore up our interior defense. I can't think of any potential free agents or trade targets who might fit that bill, but that's what I'd be looking for. I still think KAT can and will be a much better defender and Gorgui is better than many think when you watch him in person. Importantly, to be as bad as we've been defensively so far this season, it has to be the whole team. So I think it's more systemic than a reflection of any particular individual players.

Interestingly and ironically, the only starter who's been playing well defensively on a fairly consistent basis is Zach. You appreciate his defense more when you see him in person. You also appreciate his offense even more in person when you see how active he is moving without the ball. Ricky's been pretty good defensively as usual, but not as good as he's been in the past in my opinion.

If this team doesn't turn things around by the end of the season, then I would definitely shop Wiggins. He's the one guy who could potentially bring something meaningful in return and if he stays we'd have to pay him max to keep him. We have Gorgui at a reasonable price and Ricky won't bring much in return. So the talk about trading Ricky or even Gorgui is kind of meaningless. If we sign a big time free agent, we'd probably have to trade KAT, Wiggins or LaVine for salary purposes given that all three will command a max or near max deal to keep them.

Lip, Don't forget that we're going to have another high lottery pick again. A high lottery pick + one of our existing mid-tier vets (Dieng or Rubio) could bring back a pretty damn good player. A high lottery pick + Wiggins (if Thibs dares to go there) could bring back an all-star caliber player.

I'm still not ready to throw out the baby with the bath water by getting rid of one of our trio of supposed young stars (KAT, LaVine, Wiggins), but it really frosts me that these guys don't seem to get it defensively. You can't have your three best players not play defense.

(And I get Zach is working harder on defense. He still isn't a difference maker on that end).

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:I guess if/when you're 40 you can mail postcards to your friends. What an effing joke of a post I've just read.

Funny coming from the guy posting complete speculative bullshit out of your ass like you know anything behind the scenes. Maybe come at us with some facts and we might believe you, but so far you've just made shit up while treating it like fact. You're last sentence sums up most of your posts in this forum.

Q12543 wrote:Lip, Don't forget that we're going to have another high lottery pick again. A high lottery pick + one of our existing mid-tier vets (Dieng or Rubio) could bring back a pretty damn good player. A high lottery pick + Wiggins (if Thibs dares to go there) could bring back an all-star caliber player.

I'm still not ready to throw out the baby with the bath water by getting rid of one of our trio of supposed young stars (KAT, LaVine, Wiggins), but it really frosts me that these guys don't seem to get it defensively. You can't have your three best players not play defense.

(And I get Zach is working harder on defense. He still isn't a difference maker on that end).

Q - Good point about the lottery pick as part of a trade package. I'll add that I'll never accept giving up on Zach or KAT. I would consider trading either one a major organizational failure. I'm not even quite ready to give up on Wiggins. But he's the one member of our core three I might be willing to give up for the right price.

I agree Zach's hasn't yet become a "difference-maker" defensively. But he's become a solid defender. He shadows his man really well consistently off the ball (which you only see in person) and generally stays in front of his man well on the ball. I've also seen him this season emulate Ricky's active hands pressuring the ball without fouling. All this makes him a good building block for putting together a good defensive team.

Camden0916 wrote:

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:If Wiggins and his bad hands dropped and a pasta plate on my shirt I would sue that shithole of a place.

But seriously, that's a bad analogy.

It's a real world analogy. If things were the same in any other industry, the employees would be at fault and more than likely replaced. The only reason you would disagree with that is because you allow emotions to alter your point of view.

It's not clear cut either way, Cam. But my experience with the companies I've worked for is that when an entire unit is performing poorly based on numbers, the manager gets fired not the majority of employees in the unit. If there is one or two especially underperforming employee they'll certainly be terminated.

The reality is this. Last season's young team outperformed the previous season. And last season's team performed better later in the season than earlier. So far this season's team is on track to finish with a worse record than last and they're worse in every major statistical category. Again, Thibs inherited a team widely regarded as extremely talented and one that had been getting better over time.

We still have 75% of the season to go so I think we need to see this thing play out the rest of the season. But if what we've seen so far continues the rest of the season without significant improvement, then in my experience under your analogy it's the manager not the employees who would be fired.

If the lotto gods ever shine on us again I'm calling NO immediately with a #1 pick, Wiggins and Dieng for Davis and a future 2nd

lipoli390 wrote:I've always liked Ibaka, but I don't see him as part of i0othe answer to this teams' woes. He's not the same player he once was. He's still a good shot-blocker at 1.9 per game, but not what he once was. He's averaging only 6.6 rebounds per game, less than Gorgui with 8 per game and KAT at over 10. We need a guy inside like an Andre Jordan or Drummond to really shore up our interior defense. I can't think of any potential free agents or trade targets who might fit that bill, but that's what I'd be looking for. I still think KAT can and will be a much better defender and Gorgui is better than many think when you watch him in person. Importantly, to be as bad as we've been defensively so far this season, it has to be the whole team. So I think it's more systemic than a reflection of any particular individual players.

Interestingly and ironically, the only starter who's been playing well defensively on a fairly consistent basis is Zach. You appreciate his defense more when you see him in person. You also appreciate his offense even more in person when you see how active he is moving without the ball. Ricky's been pretty good defensively as usual, but not as good as he's been in the past in my opinion.

If this team doesn't turn things around by the end of the season, then I would definitely shop Wiggins. He's the one guy who could potentially bring something meaningful in return and if he stays we'd have to pay him max to keep him. We have Gorgui at a reasonable price and Ricky won't bring much in return. So the talk about trading Ricky or even Gorgui is kind of meaningless. If we sign a big time free agent, we'd probably have to trade KAT, Wiggins or LaVine for salary purposes given that all three will command a max or near max deal to keep them.

Come on man, barely a month ago you were going on about Wiggins hard work in the off season paying off, yes he is having a bad streak here but there is still plenty of time to turn it around for him. We have at least 5 more years with him, while its going to be hard to trade for a solid veteran with more than 2 years of a guaranteed contract. Don't get me wrong if you can trade Wiggins, Dieng and our first for Anthony Davis you make that trade, and sign Gordon Hayward in the off season but I just don't see something like that happening.