Minnesota Sports Forum

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:Why is it extremely difficult to point out flaws in Andrew Wiggins' game and effort on this board?

I was wondering the same thing, Cam.

No doubt we've been a terrible defensive team so far this season and blame for that falls on the entire team, including all the players and coaching staff. It's hard to break it down by individual player, but I think Q is absolutely right that Ricky and Gorgui are our best team defenders as measured by DRPM.

When it comes to Wiggins, what troubles me is that his major problem on both ends is effort. It's simply undeniable that he simply stands around or doesn't hustle way too often. It's infuriating and it's been going on with him for almost 2.5 seasons. Zach and KAT have a long way to go defensively, but at least they compete hard every minutes they're on the court.

No one on this board has more negative regarding Dieng's defense than Q. He's trashed him since the day we got him. And any metric that identifies Rubio as our best defender is dubious at best.

I definitely trashed Dieng's defense at one time. I still think it's weak in certain areas. But I'm also a stats/data guy and if the data start saying something over a sustained period of time, I pay attention to it. He has been gradually improving defensively, starting last season and continuing into this season. I hope the same trend happens with our younger guys as they gain more experience and coaching.

By the way, I was a HUGE advocate of drafting Dieng, so I was massively disappointed when he turned out not to be the defensive force I thought he'd be coming out of Louisville. He still isn't a "force" per se, but I definitely believe he's a positive now.

I also find it interesting that in responding to Lip's point, you focus on me and my views versus any of his other points. I think that you are so emotionally invested in Wiggins that you take any critique of him personally - almost as if you are being personally insulted, thus you tend to lash out. I've never understood this.

haha, spot on.

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:Why is it extremely difficult to point out flaws in Andrew Wiggins' game and effort on this board?

I was wondering the same thing, Cam.

No doubt we've been a terrible defensive team so far this season and blame for that falls on the entire team, including all the players and coaching staff. It's hard to break it down by individual player, but I think Q is absolutely right that Ricky and Gorgui are our best team defenders as measured by DRPM.

When it comes to Wiggins, what troubles me is that his major problem on both ends is effort. It's simply undeniable that he simply stands around or doesn't hustle way too often. It's infuriating and it's been going on with him for almost 2.5 seasons. Zach and KAT have a long way to go defensively, but at least they compete hard every minutes they're on the court.

No one on this board has more negative regarding Dieng's defense than Q. He's trashed him since the day we got him. And any metric that identifies Rubio as our best defender is dubious at best.

I definitely trashed Dieng's defense at one time. I still think it's weak in certain areas. But I'm also a stats/data guy and if the data start saying something over a sustained period of time, I pay attention to it. He has been gradually improving defensively, starting last season and continuing into this season. I hope the same trend happens with our younger guys as they gain more experience and coaching.

By the way, I was a HUGE advocate of drafting Dieng, so I was massively disappointed when he turned out not to be the defensive force I thought he'd be coming out of Louisville. He still isn't a "force" per se, but I definitely believe he's a positive now.

I also find it interesting that in responding to Lip's point, you focus on me and my views versus any of his other points. I think that you are so emotionally invested in Wiggins that you take any critique of him personally - almost as if you are being personally insulted, thus you tend to lash out. I've never understood this.

I was responding to Lip's statement that you were absolutely right about Gorgui. You've been anything but right about Gorgui. Maybe it's because you tend to make the same comments about the same players over and over again. I bet I had to endure 50 posts from you talking negatively about Dieng's defense. And yes, some of those were as recent as a couple months ago. I know you're a stats and data guy, it's the only lens you look through. Anybody with the time and will can read stat tables and regurgitate what they say. I'm sorry, but I don't respect that. I know anyone can find a stat to back up whatever point they are trying to make. Tell us something that can't be necessarily derived from a statistical table.

As far as Wiggins goes, what do you want me to say? He sucks because advanced stats don't look favorably on him? Any analysis of Andrew needs to include his inadequacies, some of which show up in those stats you rely on so intensely for your intelligence. But I also know there is more to a complete analysis than DRPM and the like. All I ask is you be balanced in your critique. You can't just say the stats say he sucks and stop there. Like it or not, there is a reason Thibs is so high on him, there is a reason his teammates are so high on him, and there is a reason the whole league has a great deal of respect for him. He might not be your cup of tea, but he is a damn good, young basketball player with tremendous upside.

So if Rubio and Dieng are our best why can't we guard PGs and Centers? From a statistical perspective of course. I was always taught that when advanced stats don't match the raw stats, you need to address the dificiencies in your methodologies. Since DRPM is the only advanced metric that looks fondly on Ricky and Dieng and clearly no one here can explain why I think it is safe to assume that it might not be the best adcanced metric for conversation. I would like to hear why people think opposing Centers and PGs score so easily against us a league worst FG percentages? Is it all Wiggins and his motor or might the primary defenders share some or God forbid even most of the responsibility for getting beaten at will by their counterparts.

thedoper wrote:So if Rubio and Dieng are our best why can't we guard PGs and Centers? From a statistical perspective of course. I was always taught that when advanced stats don't match the raw stats, you need to address the dificiencies in your methodologies. Since DRPM is the only advanced metric that looks fondly on Ricky and Dieng and clearly no one here can explain why I think it is safe to assume that it might not be the best adcanced metric for conversation. I would like to hear why people think opposing Centers and PGs score so easily against us a league worst FG percentages? Is it all Wiggins and his motor or might the primary defenders share some or God forbid even most of the responsibility for getting beaten at will by their counterparts.

Like I said above Doper, you can always find a stat to fit your argument or agenda. It's really easy to do. It's debate 101. Comprehensive analysis be damned when the stats are absolute authority.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:Why is it extremely difficult to point out flaws in Andrew Wiggins' game and effort on this board?

I was wondering the same thing, Cam.

No doubt we've been a terrible defensive team so far this season and blame for that falls on the entire team, including all the players and coaching staff. It's hard to break it down by individual player, but I think Q is absolutely right that Ricky and Gorgui are our best team defenders as measured by DRPM.

When it comes to Wiggins, what troubles me is that his major problem on both ends is effort. It's simply undeniable that he simply stands around or doesn't hustle way too often. It's infuriating and it's been going on with him for almost 2.5 seasons. Zach and KAT have a long way to go defensively, but at least they compete hard every minutes they're on the court.

No one on this board has more negative regarding Dieng's defense than Q. He's trashed him since the day we got him. And any metric that identifies Rubio as our best defender is dubious at best.

I definitely trashed Dieng's defense at one time. I still think it's weak in certain areas. But I'm also a stats/data guy and if the data start saying something over a sustained period of time, I pay attention to it. He has been gradually improving defensively, starting last season and continuing into this season. I hope the same trend happens with our younger guys as they gain more experience and coaching.

By the way, I was a HUGE advocate of drafting Dieng, so I was massively disappointed when he turned out not to be the defensive force I thought he'd be coming out of Louisville. He still isn't a "force" per se, but I definitely believe he's a positive now.

I also find it interesting that in responding to Lip's point, you focus on me and my views versus any of his other points. I think that you are so emotionally invested in Wiggins that you take any critique of him personally - almost as if you are being personally insulted, thus you tend to lash out. I've never understood this.

I was responding to Lip's statement that you were absolutely right about Gorgui. You've been anything but right about Gorgui. Maybe it's because you tend to make the same comments about the same players over and over again. I bet I had to endure 50 posts from you talking negatively about Dieng's defense. And yes, some of those were as recent as a couple months ago. I know you're a stats and data guy, it's the only lens you look through. Anybody with the time and will can read stat tables and regurgitate what they say. I'm sorry, but I don't respect that. I know anyone can find a stat to back up whatever point they are trying to make. Tell us something that can't be necessarily derived from a statistical table.

As far as Wiggins goes, what do you want me to say? He sucks because advanced stats don't look favorably on him? Any analysis of Andrew needs to include his inadequacies, some of which show up in those stats you rely on so intensely for your intelligence. But I also know there is more to a complete analysis than DRPM and the like. All I ask is you be balanced in your critique. You can't just say the stats say he sucks and stop there. Like it or not, there is a reason Thibs is so high on him, there is a reason his teammates are so high on him, and there is a reason the whole league has a great deal of respect for him. He might not be your cup of tea, but he is a damn good, young basketball player with tremendous upside.

Well, you can paint a caricature of me if you'd like as a stats and data guy only. I watch nearly every game just like you and offer up analysis that goes beyond stats and data. You just choose to focus on that aspect of things because if you don't like what it says, you take personal offense to it, then try to minimize the messenger instead of engaging in a civil debate. We've had this discussion before, so there is no use in re-hashing it. If you don't like what I write or are tired of it, don't read it.

thedoper wrote:So if Rubio and Dieng are our best why can't we guard PGs and Centers? From a statistical perspective of course. I was always taught that when advanced stats don't match the raw stats, you need to address the dificiencies in your methodologies. Since DRPM is the only advanced metric that looks fondly on Ricky and Dieng and clearly no one here can explain why I think it is safe to assume that it might not be the best adcanced metric for conversation. I would like to hear why people think opposing Centers and PGs score so easily against us a league worst FG percentages? Is it all Wiggins and his motor or might the primary defenders share some or God forbid even most of the responsibility for getting beaten at will by their counterparts.

I think most of the NBA's PGs truly require a team effort to stop. With the hand checking rule and all the screens set, it's just really tough for one guy to stop an opposing PG. You need the helper and then there has to be help that "helps the helper". I think that's where often times things break down for us. Centers are often recipients of easy points when those other things break down.

DRPM is not the only advanced metric that likes Rubio and Dieng. Of our starting 5, Dieng has the best defensive rating. Both are team leaders in Defensive Win Shares and Defensive Box Plus Minus as well.

I think you have made some good points Doper and by no means do I think Dieng and Rubio are without flaws defensively.

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:So if Rubio and Dieng are our best why can't we guard PGs and Centers? From a statistical perspective of course. I was always taught that when advanced stats don't match the raw stats, you need to address the dificiencies in your methodologies. Since DRPM is the only advanced metric that looks fondly on Ricky and Dieng and clearly no one here can explain why I think it is safe to assume that it might not be the best adcanced metric for conversation. I would like to hear why people think opposing Centers and PGs score so easily against us a league worst FG percentages? Is it all Wiggins and his motor or might the primary defenders share some or God forbid even most of the responsibility for getting beaten at will by their counterparts.

I think most of the NBA's PGs truly require a team effort to stop. With the hand checking rule and all the screens set, it's just really tough for one guy to stop an opposing PG. You need the helper and then there has to be help that "helps the helper". I think that's where often times things break down for us. Centers are often recipients of easy points when those other things break down.

DRPM is not the only advanced metric that likes Rubio and Dieng. Of our starting 5, Dieng has the best defensive rating. Both are team leaders in Defensive Win Shares and Defensive Box Plus Minus as well.

I think you have made some good points Doper and by no means do I think Dieng and Rubio are without flaws defensively.

I think everyone here has some good points. I really just want to know why. I don't see it as simple as just giving more effort in the case of our team. I respect a lot of the work Wiggins does guarding the other teams best wing player and taking the ball to the hoop over and over. He comes in and out of focus like many young players. I just don't think there's a magic pill at this point. But there have been moments from everyone.

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:So if Rubio and Dieng are our best why can't we guard PGs and Centers? From a statistical perspective of course. I was always taught that when advanced stats don't match the raw stats, you need to address the dificiencies in your methodologies. Since DRPM is the only advanced metric that looks fondly on Ricky and Dieng and clearly no one here can explain why I think it is safe to assume that it might not be the best adcanced metric for conversation. I would like to hear why people think opposing Centers and PGs score so easily against us a league worst FG percentages? Is it all Wiggins and his motor or might the primary defenders share some or God forbid even most of the responsibility for getting beaten at will by their counterparts.

I think most of the NBA's PGs truly require a team effort to stop. With the hand checking rule and all the screens set, it's just really tough for one guy to stop an opposing PG. You need the helper and then there has to be help that "helps the helper". I think that's where often times things break down for us. Centers are often recipients of easy points when those other things break down.

DRPM is not the only advanced metric that likes Rubio and Dieng. Of our starting 5, Dieng has the best defensive rating. Both are team leaders in Defensive Win Shares and Defensive Box Plus Minus as well.

I think you have made some good points Doper and by no means do I think Dieng and Rubio are without flaws defensively.

I think everyone here has some good points. I really just want to know why. I don't see it as simple as just giving more effort in the case of our team. I respect a lot of the work Wiggins does guarding the other teams best wing player and taking the ball to the hoop over and over. He comes in and out of focus like many young players. I just don't think there's a magic pill at this point. But there have been moments from everyone.

It's effort, awareness, and discipline - all three. Nate Duncan's particular focus was on Wiggins' effort, but yeah, there are other areas needing improvement too by him and the others.

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:Why is it extremely difficult to point out flaws in Andrew Wiggins' game and effort on this board?

I was wondering the same thing, Cam.

No doubt we've been a terrible defensive team so far this season and blame for that falls on the entire team, including all the players and coaching staff. It's hard to break it down by individual player, but I think Q is absolutely right that Ricky and Gorgui are our best team defenders as measured by DRPM.

When it comes to Wiggins, what troubles me is that his major problem on both ends is effort. It's simply undeniable that he simply stands around or doesn't hustle way too often. It's infuriating and it's been going on with him for almost 2.5 seasons. Zach and KAT have a long way to go defensively, but at least they compete hard every minutes they're on the court.

No one on this board has more negative regarding Dieng's defense than Q. He's trashed him since the day we got him. And any metric that identifies Rubio as our best defender is dubious at best.

I definitely trashed Dieng's defense at one time. I still think it's weak in certain areas. But I'm also a stats/data guy and if the data start saying something over a sustained period of time, I pay attention to it. He has been gradually improving defensively, starting last season and continuing into this season. I hope the same trend happens with our younger guys as they gain more experience and coaching.

By the way, I was a HUGE advocate of drafting Dieng, so I was massively disappointed when he turned out not to be the defensive force I thought he'd be coming out of Louisville. He still isn't a "force" per se, but I definitely believe he's a positive now.

I also find it interesting that in responding to Lip's point, you focus on me and my views versus any of his other points. I think that you are so emotionally invested in Wiggins that you take any critique of him personally - almost as if you are being personally insulted, thus you tend to lash out. I've never understood this.

I was responding to Lip's statement that you were absolutely right about Gorgui. You've been anything but right about Gorgui. Maybe it's because you tend to make the same comments about the same players over and over again. I bet I had to endure 50 posts from you talking negatively about Dieng's defense. And yes, some of those were as recent as a couple months ago. I know you're a stats and data guy, it's the only lens you look through. Anybody with the time and will can read stat tables and regurgitate what they say. I'm sorry, but I don't respect that. I know anyone can find a stat to back up whatever point they are trying to make. Tell us something that can't be necessarily derived from a statistical table.

As far as Wiggins goes, what do you want me to say? He sucks because advanced stats don't look favorably on him? Any analysis of Andrew needs to include his inadequacies, some of which show up in those stats you rely on so intensely for your intelligence. But I also know there is more to a complete analysis than DRPM and the like. All I ask is you be balanced in your critique. You can't just say the stats say he sucks and stop there. Like it or not, there is a reason Thibs is so high on him, there is a reason his teammates are so high on him, and there is a reason the whole league has a great deal of respect for him. He might not be your cup of tea, but he is a damn good, young basketball player with tremendous upside.

Well, you can paint a caricature of me if you'd like as a stats and data guy only. I watch nearly every game just like you and offer up analysis that goes beyond stats and data. You just choose to focus on that aspect of things because if you don't like what it says, you take personal offense to it, then try to minimize the messenger instead of engaging in a civil debate. We've had this discussion before, so there is no use in re-hashing it. If you don't like what I write or are tired of it, don't read it.

Ditto