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Re: Wolves Hire Thibs

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:06 pm
by Phenom
lipoli390 wrote:
Phenom's_Revenge wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:Here's a review from Wikipedia of Layden's tenure with the Knicks. You might get a bit nauseous, so have a bucket in front of you when your reading:

General Manager of the New York Knicks[edit]

Layden was the New York Knicks executive vice president and general manager from 1999-2001, and the president and general manager of the organization from 2001-2003.[3] The Knicks under Layden's watch (and of his successor Isiah Thomas) were called the "Worst Franchise in Sports" by ESPN.com.[4]

The 1999-00 NBA Season[edit]

Layden took over as general manager of the Knicks after the strike-shortened, Cinderella-story season of 1998-99 that saw the team make history by becoming the first #8 seed in a conference to reach the NBA Finals.[5] He replaced interim GM Ed Tapscott, who had already used the team's selection in the 1999 NBA Draft to take injured Frenchman Frédéric Weis with the team's first round pick over Ron Artest.

The new GM of the Knicks made his first notable transaction when he signed controversial shooting guard Latrell Sprewell to a five-year, $61.9 million contract extension that would keep him in a Knick uniform through the 2003-04 season, although he would later be traded.[6] Sprewell was a highly touted basketball talent, but he ran into off court issues with his former organization the Golden State Warriors when he was accused of strangling then head coach P. J. Carlesimo during a practice. Soon after becoming a member of the Knicks, Sprewell was involved in a car crash that saw him, "drive his Mercedes-Benz on a freeway from an exit lane".[7]

The 2000-01 NBA Season - Team Record: 48-34[edit]

August 1, 2000 saw Layden make his second big move when he re-signed free agent power forward Kurt Thomas to a 3-year, $13M contract extension with a 1-year team option.

On September 20, the Knicks GM traded veteran, all-star, and team captain center Patrick Ewing to the Seattle SuperSonics in a four-team deal that saw back-up center Chris Dudley and the Knicks 2001 first-round draft pick go to the Phoenix Suns, in return for forwards Glen Rice & Lazaro Borrell, guard Vernon Maxwell, centers Luc Longley, Travis Knight, Vladimir Stepania, a 2001 first-round draft pick from the Los Angeles Lakers, a 2002 first-round draft pick from the Seattle SuperSonics, and two 2001 second-round draft picks. Rice played in 75 games, averaging 12 points-per-game for New York before being traded to Houston. Knight appeared in 126 games over three seasons, averaging less than 9 minutes per-game. Longley played in 25 games for the Knicks averaging 2 points and 2.6 rebounds, while Borrell, Maxwell, & Stepania never saw action for the team. Ewing's production had decreased due to age and chronic injury over the past few seasons, and team brass felt that a deal was in the best interest of the future of the organization.

On January 30, 2001, guard Erick Strickland and a first and second-round draft pick from the Ewing trade was sent to the Vancouver Grizzlies for back-up forward/center Othella Harrington. Harrington would go to play in 237 games for New York while only starting in 77.[8] Vancouver would take Jamaal Tinsley with the 27th-pick in the draft acquired from New York.

February 22 saw guard Chris Childs and the other first-round draft pick sent to the Toronto Raptors in exchange for aging guards Mark Jackson and Muggsy Bogues. Bogues would never appear in a game for the Knicks, while Jackson would play less than two full seasons for the team that originally made him the 18th pick in the 1987 draft.

The 2001-02 NBA Season - Team Record: 30-52[edit]

With the Knicks no longer having a first round draft pick in the 2001 NBA Draft, Layden used the team's two second round picks on Michael Wright of Arizona (39th overall) and center Eric Chenowith of Kansas (43rd overall). Neither player ever saw action in the NBA.[9]

On July 23, Knicks shooting guard Allan Houston re-signed as a free agent to a 6-year, $100M guaranteed contract that would keep him in New York until the 2006-07 season, when he would be 35. The signing made Houston, who had never averaged 20-points-per-game in a season at that time, the highest-paid player in franchise history.[10] This transaction put the team "well over $80 million in payroll this season [2001]." [11] Houston retired after the 2004-05 season with chronic knee complications; there was roughly $40,000,000 left on his contract.[12]

Less than a month later, on August 10, Glen Rice was traded to the Houston Rockets and guard Muggsy Bogues to the Dallas Mavericks as part of a three-team deal in exchange for guard Howard Eisley from the Mavericks and forward Shandon Anderson from the Rockets. On paper this trade looks merely like a swap of average NBA players, but this was not the case. Eisley would end up playing in 154 games for Knicks, providing adequate numbers at the point guard position, but he was currently in the second year of a 7-year, $41 Million contract that he signed by Layden's former organization, the Utah Jazz. At the same time, Anderson, another former member of the Jazz was in the first year of a 6-year, $42 Million contract that he signed with the Rockets, which extended through the 2006-07 season. Anderson played in 245 games for the knicks over four seasons before being waived due to poor performance; he averaged less than 3 rebounds and 8 points-per-game during his stay. In comparison to the contracts New York gave up, Bogues was in the second year of a 4-year $8 Million contract with the fourth year being a team option, and Rice was under contract for three more years and $27 Million.[13] The trade proved to be a bad financial decision as the team was well over the salary cap limit.

Layden's next major move came after the unexpected resignation of head coach Jeff Van Gundy on December 8. Don Chaney was selected as an interim coach for the remainder of the 2001-02 season. After the team went 20-43 .317% under his command, he was given a contract extension for the following season.

The 2002-03 NBA Season - Team Record: 37-45[edit]

The biggest move that Layden made during the 2002-03 season was completed on draft night. After selecting Nenê with the 7th pick in the 2002 NBA draft, he was immediately traded along with Marcus Camby and Mark Jackson to the Denver Nuggets in return for power forward Antonio McDyess, the draft rights to guard Frank Williams and a 2003 second-round draft pick.[14] McDyess, a former #2 draft pick, was already limited to role-player status due to chronic injury; He played only 18 games for the Knicks. Williams was a disappointment from the beginning, his Knick career lasted 65 games with only three starts. On the other end of this transaction, Denver received a solid NBA player in power forward/center Marcus Camby. Camby had averaged a double-double (at least 10 rebounds and 10 points per-game) over his last two seasons as a Knick and nearly 2 blocked shots, along with being an integral part of New York's eastern conference title in 1999.

The 2003-04 NBA Season - Team Record: 10-18[edit]

Layden's last season as the GM for the Knicks started off with the selections of Mike Sweetney from Georgetown with the 9th-pick in the draft, Maciej Lampe of Poland with the 30th-pick, and Slavko Vrane? of Serbia and Montenegro with the 39th-pick. Sweetney was later traded by Layden's successor Isiah Thomas as part of the deal with the Chicago Bulls that saw the Knicks acquire center Eddy Curry. Lampe never played in a game for New York as he was later traded to the Phoenix Suns, also by Thomas as part of the deal that saw Stephon Marbury come to the Knicks. Vrane? also never saw NBA action with New York, he was waived by the team after being tendered a 1-year minimum contract; currently his career spans one game with the Portland Trail Blazers.

On July 23, 2003 Layden traded guard Latrell Sprewell with two years remaining on his contract to the Minnesota Timberwolves as part of a four-team trade that also included interactions with the 76ers and Hawks. In return, the Knicks acquired veteran forward Keith Van Horn. Van Horn, an integral part of the New Jersey Nets 2002 eastern conference title, played in only 47 games for New York in just one season, averaging 16.4 points and 7.3 rebounds-per-game.[15]

The last notable transaction that Layden made as general manager came on October 9, when he signed Dikembe Mutombo to a 2-year contract.

Scott Layden was fired on December 22, 2003 by New York Knicks owner James Dolan.


And after all that, the Spurs hired him.


But as an assistant GM, not GM. In other words, not as a decision-maker. He'll be a major decision maker here. Again, just look at the multiple horrific decisions he made when finally given the top decision-making job in a NBA franchise.



But if the Spurs get slurped for every other move they make, I think there is legitimate reason to endorse him based on that.

Similarly, game management concerns with Thibs are fair but he went out of his way to essentially train with some of the leagues' best this year. We need to bank on him seeing the ways of moderation. I am confident that he took a lot from those sessions. Layden spent 4 years in San Antonio surely seeing how they do things.

Re: Wolves Hire Thibs

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:07 pm
by Lipoli390
Cam -- I'm trying to get excited about these hires. You're good at making a case. Please give me a pep talk. Make the case for Thibs and Layden and help convince me to get excited. Thanks.

Re: Wolves Hire Thibs

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:09 pm
by Duke13
This opinion differs than most on this board, but I really hope they take a long term approach. The core is 20-22 years old. I think, along with most this roster with a good coach will make the playoffs next year. That would big a big step, I would be against making any big splash moves this offseason or trading our pick for a veteran to try and squeeze out a few extra wins in the short term. The time to make a big free agent signing or acquisition would possibly be in 2-3 years when we have a better idea of the ceiling of our current core and when you're contending for a championship, we arent there now. Just my opinion. I love what Thorpe said, everyone one of our players value will go up after playing a season under Tibbs.

Re: Wolves Hire Thibs

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:15 pm
by BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]
Duke13 wrote:This opinion differs than most on this board, but I really hope they take a long term approach. The core is 20-22 years old. I think, along with most this roster with a good coach will make the playoffs next year. That would big a big step, I would be against making any big splash moves this offseason or trading our pick for a veteran to try and squeeze out a few extra wins in the short term. The time to make a big free agent signing or acquisition would possibly be in 2-3 years when we have a better idea of the ceiling of our current core and when you're contending for a championship, we arent there now. Just my opinion. I love what Thorpe said, everyone one of our players value will go up after playing a season under Tibbs.


Agree with this take. Thorpe and Windhorst saying what we already know, the Spurs and Warriors are gonna be better than us for 5 more years. Let's play the long game and slowly wear them down.

Re: Wolves Hire Thibs

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:19 pm
by Coolbreeze44
If you're not on Twitter, now would be a good time to start. So many good articles on the Wolves and their future that I can't keep up. A few tidbits:

1) Thibs should be able to attract quality free agents. Guys are going to want to win, and the they are going to want to play with Towns and Wiggins.

2) The Wolves may be able to parlay their draft pick into an asset that can provide immediate help

3) Stan Van Gundy is very happy Thibs is coaching a Western conference team - VERY happy

4) The team has great flexibility in a lot of different ways.

5) Everyone is talking about how bright the future is.

Re: Wolves Hire Thibs

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:22 pm
by Duke13
We have the talent where we I don't think we'll need to sign a max player down the road to content, more of a Iggy type signing like the Warriors did when they knew they were ready. I don't think its unrealistic to think we'll be competing with the Spurs and the Dubs in 2-3 years. I have to say I'm shocked at the national attention we are getting, I can't get enough of it.

Re: Wolves Hire Thibs

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:26 pm
by Coolbreeze44
Trust me on this one - it's not going to take 5-6 years for us to get on the same level as the Warriors and Spurs. Three tops.

Re: Wolves Hire Thibs

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:28 pm
by TAFKASP
lipoli390 wrote:Cam -- I'm trying to get excited about these hires. You're good at making a case. Please give me a pep talk. Make the case for Thibs and Layden and help convince me to get excited. Thanks.


My thoughts on Layden:

1. He wasn't the decision maker in NY. Edit: I guess he was the top guy from 1999-2003, but I still think Dolan was in the driver's seat for the most part.

2. Dolan is a horrible owner. The Knicks have been in terrible cap trouble pretty much forever now, yet Dolan expects his front office to work miracles and put a winning team on the court. That leaves the front office in a position where they have to make risky bets in the hope of a miracle. The longer that type of mentality prevails the worse the cap situation and draft pick situation gets, it's a vicious cycle. Each trade, each free agent signing makes the next harder to win.

The Knicks needed to bite the bullet for a couple years, accept that they were going to be terrible, get their cap situation right and stop trading away future draft picks on risky trades. Only then could they truly compete, but ownership wasn't interested in that and forced the front office decision makers hands.

Given Layden's lack of decision making authority along with the impossible situation his boss was in with NY I think we really have to take that whole situation with a large truckload of salt!

I like the move, Thibs is a top guy, well respected around the league. Between having a legitimate NBA coach and front office along with great young talent the Wolves are on the verge of becoming a destination for quality free agents who want to win!! Have we ever been able to say that before?

Re: Wolves Hire Thibs

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:36 pm
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
I'm on the fence about the news today, but mostly on board just because of my optimism about our young core. Here's how I see the good and bad of the deal:

The Good

1) Thibs has been a consistent winner in the NBA, at least during the regular season.

2) I always gravitate toward defense, and Thibs has a great defensive reputation. I think we have some potentially elite defenders on our roster, and hopefully Thibs' can bring out the best in them.

3) Thibs appears to have no life outside of basketball...no hobbies, no wife, no kids, apparently hasn't even had a date since college. He will be able to devote 24 hours a day to the Timberwolves.

The Bad

1) I was an advocate for a young, fresh face that could potentially be around for 10 or more years as coach. Thibs' personality grated on the Bulls' front office and he wore out his welcome quickly, and the last thing this franchise needs is another coaching change in a couple years. Glen is a level-headed guy, though, and perhaps Thibs has softened during his year off.

2) I'm concerned about having a POBO with no executive experience. Many here were concerned about taking a chance on a coach with no NBA coaching experience, but arguably the POBO has more to do with the future of this franchise than the head coach, and now we have an unknown in that role. Thibs could turn out to be the greatest POBO in the history of the NBA, or he could turn out to be a failure...we don't know. But the uncertainty is uncomfortable for me.

3) Thibs' reputation of wearing out his players is also concerning to me. With the combination of Sam's minutes limitations and softer practices and the presence of Arnie Kander, our young core and Ricky Rubio was remarkably healthy this season. I hope that Thibs has changed his philosophy, and that he takes a softer approach toward minutes and in-season pracitces. I don't want the kind of injury history that torpedoed the Bulls to also torpedo our chances. And also, I want our stars fresh for the post-season, like Pop keeps his stars fresh.

Thibs is a smart guy and hopefully has learned from his past mistakes. If he brings a softer, more cooperative approach to the job and also significantly improves this team's defense, this could turn out to be a great hire. I have my fingers crossed.

Re: Wolves Hire Thibs

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:37 pm
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
Duke13 wrote:This opinion differs than most on this board, but I really hope they take a long term approach. The core is 20-22 years old. I think, along with most this roster with a good coach will make the playoffs next year. That would big a big step, I would be against making any big splash moves this offseason or trading our pick for a veteran to try and squeeze out a few extra wins in the short term. The time to make a big free agent signing or acquisition would possibly be in 2-3 years when we have a better idea of the ceiling of our current core and when you're contending for a championship, we arent there now. Just my opinion. I love what Thorpe said, everyone one of our players value will go up after playing a season under Tibbs.


In 2-3 years, there's no telling if we'll have the necessary cap space to make a splash in free agency. If you can, you take advantage of that starting now. Really good players on rookie contracts are an advantage. You make the most of that by spending big money elsewhere.