thedoper wrote:Wiggins is already the best wing defender the Wolves have ever had on their team. Worst case scenario he is a lock down wing defender with some offense. I think he is already so much more. His shots will start falling. I can't see how he doesn't become Jimmy Butler / Paul George / Kawai Leonard type player.
I don't know about this.
The Wolves were one of the worst defensive teams in the history of the NBA last season. I think Wiggins being a top-notch defender has more to do with our hopeful narratives (and ineptitude around him) than anything else.
It may not be a great accomplishment yet. But which wolf do you think was a better wing defender? Spree, Hassell, JR?? There is no projection. One excellent perimeter defender does not make for great team defense on any team. But in isolation he already has the best technique and skills that I have seen of any Timberwolves defender.
Hassell shut the shit down of the other teams top scorers back in their WCF run. The rules were different, but he was pretty much Tony Allen back in the day
The rule changes destroyed Hassell's ability to play effectively in the NBA. He was a lousy offensive player. (His lack of free throw attempts was a humorous side project for me for a spell.) But he could defend when defenders were allowed to drape themselves all over offensive players. He was physical and willing and aided by the rules at the time.
Would he be better than Wiggins in today's NBA? Dunno. But I know when I think of the best defensive wings in Wolves history, I'm putting Hassell on that list well ahead of Wiggins based on his actual performances give the league at the time.
Hassell was not a grabby defender that year IMO. He was very quick very disciplined and was always the right space from the offensive player to either contest a jumper or keep the guy from driving. He was always in a guy's area. He clearly dropped off after that year defensively but it didn't have anything to do with rule changes.
OK, but I disagree.
Go look at video from the 2004 series vs. Sacramento. The league changed significantly the next season. (for the better in my opinion) Hassell was still a plus defender with the new rules. But I don't think he was elite. Was anybody on the perimeter though? The difference was that when he wasn't elite... he couldn't offset his offensive shortcomings as well.
I won't take the time to look at video from the playoffs (I don't think you will blame me) so I will concede to you there and instead I will revise my statement that he played the type of defense I described in the regular season in the handful of games I watched.
I guess I have a hard time not commenting when it almost seems assumed he was only a good defender because he mugged guys that whole season. Instead like I said in the games I watched during the regular season (which probably weren't a huge amount and it was seemingly a LOOOOONG time ago so...) I marveled at what he was doing on that end. It's rare you see something that pure on that end even in a few games. I still treasure it in my heart. Lol
On Wiggins outside shooting - It's a problem. It was a problem last season and it's a problem so far this season. His ability to get to the FT line is an unbelievable asset - he's averaging 10 FTAs per 36 minutes this season - so he's obviously got one major plank in place to be an elite scorer. But ultimately, every great wing scorer has to be able to knock down the jumper. Relentlessly taking it to the basket is nice, but that isn't always what the defense gives you. Plus, damn, that is physically taxing over the course of an 82-game season.
On McCollum and Lillard - Ultimately these guys are shot makers. What that means is even if well defended, they can make shots. I mean, Lillard hit a couple of daggers right in people's faces where all you can do is throw up your hands and then tip your cap. McCollum is a notch below him, but pretty damn good himself. Linking this back to Wiggins, he has the length and athleticism to get his shot off from almost anywhere, but unless he's getting fouled or at the rim, he simply isn't making enough of them. He's got to knock down more of these mid-range jumpers and post-ups. That's not an effort or energy issue, so I have no idea what advice to give him.....keep getting the practice reps in I guess.
On McCollum again - I was with Lip on draft day 2013 and felt CJ was the right pick. Of course, I cooled to that once he got hurt and he became a bit of an afterthought as 'Bazz came on strong last year and Dieng has been a solid backup. But now he's pulling ahead of these two guys. One thing to keep in mind though (at least when comparing him to 'Bazz, Wiggins, or LaVine) is that CJ is 24-years old. He had a full 4-years of college where he was the alpha dog from day one at Lehigh.
Monster... I didn't mean to imply that was the only reason Hassell was a good defender. Remember, I'm the one who mentioned him in this thread as the Wolves all-time best wing defender.
And as I also wrote... he was still above average as a defender after the rule changes. But I don't think he had quite the footspeed, savvy (or credibility with the officials) that a guy like Bowen had to keep his status as an elite defender in the no handcheck era.
[Note: I still don't know how/why Bowen was allowed to hand-check Steve Nash so much during the 2007 playoffs. Dammit.]
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Monster... I didn't mean to imply that was the only reason Hassell was a good defender. Remember, I'm the one who mentioned him in this thread as the Wolves all-time best wing defender.
And as I also wrote... he was still above average as a defender after the rule changes. But I don't think he had quite the footspeed, savvy (or credibility with the officials) that a guy like Bowen had to keep his status as an elite defender in the no handcheck era.
[Note: I still don't know how/why Bowen was allowed to hand-check Steve Nash so much during the 2007 playoffs. Dammit.]
Excellent breakdown. I think one thing that gets left out about Bowen was his athletic gifts. Everyone knows about the smarts/mental aspects of his D, the grit, the grabbing maybe even being dirty but the guy also was quick and could get up. He was a little undersized but you would never know it. Damn the Spurs know how to find these guys and develop them. Danny Green is that castoff turned worthwhile player now. No he isn't the defender Bowen was but he is good on that end and give you a lot more offensively. Just another castoff that the Spurs had turn into a starter level player. It's amazing.
I recently found out I'm a genetic freak... and not in a good way for a guy who's been playing basketball religiously for multiple decades.
While getting fitted for a new suit, the tailor made a quip about how short my arms are for my height. Huh? I'd never heard that before. And I wish the gal pal wasn't there to hear it either.
She called me T-Rex for three days after that. But it all makes sense now... I thought I averaged 0.5 rpg in my career because I was a ground-bound 6'0" white PG with a lazy streak when he wasn't passing or shooting. Nope. It was nothing to do with that. I didn't stand a chance with my T-Rex arms.
Whew. On a good note, I get to keep playing lazy with an excuse for my shoddy rebounding...
I don't know, abe, it sounds to me like you're a rebounding overachiever. You're only .2 rpg behind Damjan Rudez's career average, and he's 6'10"!
I recently found out I'm a genetic freak... and not in a good way for a guy who's been playing basketball religiously for multiple decades.
While getting fitted for a new suit, the tailor made a quip about how short my arms are for my height. Huh? I'd never heard that before. And I wish the gal pal wasn't there to hear it either.
She called me T-Rex for three days after that. But it all makes sense now... I thought I averaged 0.5 rpg in my career because I was a ground-bound 6'0" white PG with a lazy streak when he wasn't passing or shooting. Nope. It was nothing to do with that. I didn't stand a chance with my T-Rex arms.
Whew. On a good note, I get to keep playing lazy with an excuse for my shoddy rebounding...
I don't know, abe, it sounds to me like you're a rebounding overachiever. You're only .2 rpg behind Damjan Rudez's career average, and he's 6'10"!
Buck up man. You can be 5'10" like me and still get a few rebounds. Box out like crazy (had to learn later in life not to accidentally undercut guys they were bigger and athletic than I was used to) anticipate where the ball will be and go get it. When you lose your above average vertical get fat so you can push people around better. I recommend donuts.
thedoper wrote:Wiggins is already the best wing defender the Wolves have ever had on their team. Worst case scenario he is a lock down wing defender with some offense. I think he is already so much more. His shots will start falling. I can't see how he doesn't become Jimmy Butler / Paul George / Kawai Leonard type player.
I don't know about this.
The Wolves were one of the worst defensive teams in the history of the NBA last season. I think Wiggins being a top-notch defender has more to do with our hopeful narratives (and ineptitude around him) than anything else.
It may not be a great accomplishment yet. But which wolf do you think was a better wing defender? Spree, Hassell, JR?? There is no projection. One excellent perimeter defender does not make for great team defense on any team. But in isolation he already has the best technique and skills that I have seen of any Timberwolves defender.
Hassell shut the shit down of the other teams top scorers back in their WCF run. The rules were different, but he was pretty much Tony Allen back in the day
Yeah, Hassell was very good. I remember KG used to call him the best defender on the team, and when one of the top defenders of all time says you're better than him, that's saying a lot. It's funny, because he wasn't particularly long or athletic, but he made up for it with grit and smarts. I'd like to think Wig has the tools to be as good as Hassell was defensively, but time will tell...he has a long ways to go.
Actually, Hassel had some crazy long arms. I know this because I got his autograph at a grocery story a long ass time ago, and I watched him drop his pen on the ground and picked it up without bending over in his chair
[Boring Abe Story Alert:]
I recently found out I'm a genetic freak... and not in a good way for a guy who's been playing basketball religiously for multiple decades.
While getting fitted for a new suit, the tailor made a quip about how short my arms are for my height. Huh? I'd never heard that before. And I wish the gal pal wasn't there to hear it either.
She called me T-Rex for three days after that. But it all makes sense now... I thought I averaged 0.5 rpg in my career because I was a ground-bound 6'0" white PG with a lazy streak when he wasn't passing or shooting. Nope. It was nothing to do with that. I didn't stand a chance with my T-Rex arms.
Whew. On a good note, I get to keep playing lazy with an excuse for my shoddy rebounding...
They used to call that Kevin Willis syndrome in Atlanta. He had remarkably short arms for his height. Ended up doing okay though.
