CoolBreeze44 wrote:Funny how Zach seems to be such a polarizing figure on this forum, and how he gets so much of our attention. But he gets that attention not for what he has done, but for what circumstances his coaches have brought upon him. I'm trying really hard to enjoy his development and ignore what position he lines up at. I just hope his coach doesn't do him more harm than good in the long run. I'm legitimately concerned about that.
Yeah, Zach is a polarizing figure, but I think it makes sense. The differential between his huge upside and his sometimes bonehead play is vast, and astute fans like those on this board want an explanation for it. Some want to pin it on coaching and the position he is playing. Others, well maybe just me, pin it firmly on Zach. Whether he is playing PG or SG, he alternates between moments of brilliance with moments of "WTF!" I think this is normal for most 20-year-old NBA players given so much responsibility, but I believe it's magnified with an athletic guy like Zach who didn't have the benefit of much college experience and frankly may have a below average basketball IQ. I'm frustrated at times with Zach, but overall I'm enjoying his development. His PER has increased 50% this year, and if he can continue that trend, we have a budding superstar to team with budding superstars Wig and KAT. Try to enjoy the ride, but fasten your seatbelt...with a guy like Zach, it's going to be a bumpy ride!
m4gor wrote:the biggest question to me is, are we going with Wigg at SG long term? because if it is the best position for Wigg, he should play like 36 minutes per game there and Lavine has to be our backup combo guard or PG and play instead of the guy who shall not be named, when iron legs of this guy needs some repairs
Wiggins will likely transition to SF at some point unless Bazz improves enough to play there. Wiggins playing at SG or SF it matters very little as far as experience. Those positions are very interchangeable offensively and playing Wiggins at SG with Prince at SF probably does give him a bit of a break physically and at time some advantages.
Here is my vision for the future. Wiggins plays a wing position and either Bazz or Zach plays the other as a starter. Whoever doesn't start between those 2 is a 6th man with scoring punch and some other dynamics to effect the game. PG I hope Rubio is the guy and if he isn't I'll hope for Tyus to be that guy. Regardless I think at some point this team needs to add a youngish athletic wing defender to come off the bench. That type could be found in the 2nd round, UFA, free agent, d-league guy, minor trade etc.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:Funny how Zach seems to be such a polarizing figure on this forum, and how he gets so much of our attention. But he gets that attention not for what he has done, but for what circumstances his coaches have brought upon him. I'm trying really hard to enjoy his development and ignore what position he lines up at. I just hope his coach doesn't do him more harm than good in the long run. I'm legitimately concerned about that.
Yeah, Zach is a polarizing figure, but I think it makes sense. The differential between his huge upside and his sometimes bonehead play is vast, and astute fans like those on this board want an explanation for it. Some want to pin it on coaching and the position he is playing. Others, well maybe just me, pin it firmly on Zach. Whether he is playing PG or SG, he alternates between moments of brilliance with moments of "WTF!" I think this is normal for most 20-year-old NBA players given so much responsibility, but I believe it's magnified with an athletic guy like Zach who didn't have the benefit of much college experience and frankly may have a below average basketball IQ. I'm frustrated at times with Zach, but overall I'm enjoying his development. His PER has increased 50% this year, and if he can continue that trend, we have a budding superstar to team with budding superstars Wig and KAT. Try to enjoy the ride, but fasten your seatbelt...with a guy like Zach, it's going to be a bumpy ride!
You're not alone in worrying about Zach's IQ, Q.
The question isn't whether he's a PG or an SG (that's been obvious since the beginning of last year, even to most of his supporters). The question is whether he's actually going to reach his potential or be the next early-career Gerald Green. I personally think his decision-making will be by far the biggest obstacle to his ability to reach his potential, not the position he's playing. Playing him at the right position will help, but he still needs to make better decisions. I really hope he does it though, because his talent is definitely tantalizing.
Camden0916 wrote:His poor decision-making is less of an issue if he's not handling the ball every single possession. That's not difficult to understand.
I think everyone here agrees that its decision making/consistency/mental aspect of the game that holds Zach back. Could the mental reps at PG actually be a good thing for his development? I say maybe but I think that's the real back and forth that goes on here more than anything. The tough thing is while I can see he doesn't have an obvious knack or feel for running a team I also don't know what the coaching staff are asking him to do and I don't have the basketball knowledge to really look at the offense and see what they are trying to accomplish on a possession past maybe a very basic level. Maybe Zach is achieving the goals of what they want him to do at an acceptable rate. I just don't know. I am just looking at a variety of angles here.
Zach's inconsistency as a player makes him running the PG position dicey you can't get around that. If he was just getting minutes at PG and it didn't really have effect on other players as much I don't think people would have as much of a problem with it but that's not the way it is.
There is so much info we don't know that would make it easy to assess what to do going forward. What role is Martin really willing to accept? Are the Wolves really willing to look at making any type of move this season? I think we know Flip valued Martin VERY highly. What value the the Wolves have on him now? What do guys do in practice? Are there any frustrations because of lack of playing time? It's 9 games in and there are still a lot of questions. Fortunately a few of them about this team have been answered because Towns and Bjelica have looked plenty legit. All the other questions going into the season are pretty much up in the air and Rubio's injury situation is more concerning.
m4gor wrote:the biggest question to me is, are we going with Wigg at SG long term? because if it is the best position for Wigg, he should play like 36 minutes per game there and Lavine has to be our backup combo guard or PG and play instead of the guy who shall not be named, when iron legs of this guy needs some repairs
Wiggins will likely transition to SF at some point unless Bazz improves enough to play there. Wiggins playing at SG or SF it matters very little as far as experience. Those positions are very interchangeable offensively and playing Wiggins at SG with Prince at SF probably does give him a bit of a break physically and at time some advantages.
Here is my vision for the future. Wiggins plays a wing position and either Bazz or Zach plays the other as a starter. Whoever doesn't start between those 2 is a 6th man with scoring punch and some other dynamics to effect the game. PG I hope Rubio is the guy and if he isn't I'll hope for Tyus to be that guy. Regardless I think at some point this team needs to add a youngish athletic wing defender to come off the bench. That type could be found in the 2nd round, UFA, free agent, d-league guy, minor trade etc.
i am not so sure about this, it comes to the same philosophy why Sam wants Zach at PG as Zach is longer and faster than most PGs and Sam wants to create mismatch this way, sure wing positions are similar when it comes to skillset, but the difference in average size of starter SG and starter SF is pretty big, so if Wigg can guard SGs and use a size advantage on the other end, Sam will use him at SG and frankly he has huge advantage there, you could see that against Butler who himself is pretty big SG and with Wigg (backed up by Martin) at 2 Sam has to find some other use for Zach
Camden wrote:His poor decision-making is less of an issue if he's not handling the ball every single possession. That's not difficult to understand.
No need to be condescending.
Of course you're right that it will be less of an issue because he'll have the ball less, and I'd go even further because I think moving him to SG might actually encourage him to be a better decision maker because it will reduce the pressure on him to be a playmaker for others.
But my opinion is that his decision-making problems aren't going to completely go away no matter his position, and that it's this issue (not what position he plays) that will ultimately determine whether he reaches his potential.
How many more do I have to find and post before this stupid ass argument is over? Points, assists, rebounds, scoring efficiency. None of those matter if you can't perform the basic functions of a PG at the NBA level and Zach can't do the basic functions of an NBA PG. Watch the offense with Ricky and Miller at the helm and when Zach is at the helm. It's night and day. Even Tyus knows how to run an offense better than Zach. Zach could score 25 a game. If we lose all of them because the offense as a whole can't run effectively due to Zach's inability to run and manage an NBA offense then why does it matter what his individual stats are? We win games when Ricky plays and lose them when Zach plays. That's the difference between having a real PG and a fake one.
So, points, assists, rebounds and scoring efficiency don't matter in the NBA, but I'm the one making the "stupid ass argument" :confused:! Add in good defense, which the numbers say Zach is much improved in this year, and you have described exactly what I want my backup PG to do...score, assist, rebound, shoot efficiently and play defense. And Zach at age 20 already does them all better than all the point guards who were drafted higher than him in the past 2 years...and he continues to improve! What am I missing here? He's statistically better than starters Smart, Payton, Mudiay and Russell, but we don't think he's good enough to back up Rubio on our championship team...sheesh!
I generally like Eric in Madison (whose article you posted), but he always analyzes the game ignoring the defensive side of the ball. I don't, and neither do Sam Mitchell or Jim Peterson. I'm going with those two guys' opinion over Eric in Madison's.
I could argue Zach is not a good defender at either position right now so putting him off the ball would be an overall better defensive situation for him so he gets tasked with chasing guys around screens and not being put in the PnR half the game. Zach's speed and lack of strength is better suited off the ball because he can disrupt passing lanes and deny the ball to his matchup. If Zach can shut down a passing lane to his man because of his speed advantage how is that guy going to be able to use his strength to take advantage of Zach to get a good look? He's gonna be 30ft from the basket every time he gets the ball and Zach has Towns behind him protecting the rim. How many 2's have the skill to post Zach up to take advantage of their weight advantage? The answer is very few.
So offensively he is better as a 2 because he is a much better catch and shoot scorer than any other type of shooting. He has the handle to be a secondary ball handler and is a willing passer to keep the offense flowing, but shouldn't be relied on to set up other teammates because of the mental mistakes he makes. He is great in transition which is cancelled when he has to go back to get the ball to bring up the floor instead of just flying down the court which he would get to do as a 2. Defensively he has less responsibility and he has the speed to be disruptive in passing lanes and worse comes to worse if he gets iso'd on a stronger 2 he has a great defensive big protecting him at the rim. He can be a good 2 regardless of starting or coming off the bench now because that plays to all of his strengths as a player. Or he can keep being a backup PG who creates a matchup advantage for the other team every night because of his inability to play the position effectively as clearly shown by the difference between the team numbers when he's on the court versus Ricky. Sam can keep saying in theory why Zach is better off as a PG instead of a 2. None of the data backs that assumption up right now so it's hot air. He's basically guessing Zach can't be a good 2 against most of the 2's in the league instead of actually trying it. The season is 82 games long Sam. That leaves plenty of games to spare to test your theories without disrupting an entire season.
I like that his poor decision making isn't hidden. Otherwise how will Zach improve? I still fail to see what the downside of him getting more responsibility as a ball handler is for his development.
thedoper wrote:I like that his poor decision making isn't hidden. Otherwise how will Zach improve? I still fail to see what the downside of him getting more responsibility as a ball handler is for his development.
The downside is for the guys he's playing with. When Zach can't run the point the other guys can't get into any rhythm offensively and the whole offensive flow is affected.
