Minnesota Sports Forum

TheFuture wrote:Well Khans, I'm talking about less than a 1% chance here. Yes, if Wiggins takes the QO I trade him for what I can get. KAT is the true prize in MN. He is the only one who warrants a max extension tomorrow if necessary.

If Wiggins takes the QO you can't trade him without his permission.

WildWolf2813 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:Well Khans, I'm talking about less than a 1% chance here. Yes, if Wiggins takes the QO I trade him for what I can get. KAT is the true prize in MN. He is the only one who warrants a max extension tomorrow if necessary.

If Wiggins takes the QO you can't trade him without his permission.

I did not know that. Thanks.

Still, I wait to sign him until I see what transpires through at least half of this season. Who knows, maybe Jimmy loves it here with KAT, and Wiggins isn't seen as an ideal fit for those two.

Let's look at a season stat comparison:

GP GS MIN FGM-A FG% 3PM-A 3P% FTM-A FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS

82 20 26.0 2.9-6.2 .467 0.5-1.3 .381 2.3-2.8 .803 1.7 2.3 4.0 1.4 0.4 1.0 1.2 0.8 8.6

82 82 37.2 8.6-19.1 .452 1.3-3.5 .356 5.0-6.6 .760 1.2 2.8 4.0 2.3 0.4 1.0 2.2 2.3 23.6

You can probably easily guess who the 2nd stat line belongs to, it was Wiggins last year. The first is probably more difficult. What we have here is a comparison between Jimmy Butler and Andrew at a comparable age. It was Butler's 2nd season and Wiggins' third. In fact, Butler would have been a little older during this snap shot in time. Now you can say this doesn't mean anything today, and that even within these numbers you can see some problems with Wiggins line. But to me this is an indictment on the lack of patience this board has with Andrew Wiggins. We all agree that he is supremely gifted as an athlete and basketball player. Given that and what is illustrated above, I just can't understand why he wouldn't be given more rope. Maybe he doesn't ever become a jack of all trades shooting guard. He probably doesn't. But what's wrong with a career trajectory that demonstrates the potential of a top 10 player in the league? Give him the max without even thinking about it at this point.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Let's look at a season stat comparison:

GP GS MIN FGM-A FG% 3PM-A 3P% FTM-A FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS

82 20 26.0 2.9-6.2 .467 0.5-1.3 .381 2.3-2.8 .803 1.7 2.3 4.0 1.4 0.4 1.0 1.2 0.8 8.6

82 82 37.2 8.6-19.1 .452 1.3-3.5 .356 5.0-6.6 .760 1.2 2.8 4.0 2.3 0.4 1.0 2.2 2.3 23.6

You can probably easily guess who the 2nd stat line belongs to, it was Wiggins last year. The first is probably more difficult. What we have here is a comparison between Jimmy Butler and Andrew at a comparable age. It was Butler's 2nd season and Wiggins' third. In fact, Butler would have been a little older during this snap shot in time. Now you can say this doesn't mean anything today, and that even within these numbers you can see some problems with Wiggins line. But to me this is an indictment on the lack of patience this board has with Andrew Wiggins. We all agree that he is supremely gifted as an athlete and basketball player. Given that and what is illustrated above, I just can't understand why he wouldn't be given more rope. Maybe he doesn't ever become a jack of all trades shooting guard. He probably doesn't. But what's wrong with a career trajectory that demonstrates the potential of a top 10 player in the league? Give him the max without even thinking about it at this point.

Cool -- Thanks for posting this. It helps put Wiggins in better perspective for those of us who have criticized him. I asked Flip how good Wiggins can be. He said, "top 10." I said, "you mean top 10 at his position?" He replied, "no, top 10 in the League." So your assessment is certainly in line with Flip's expectations. Thibs repeatedly rebuffs claims that Wiggins lacks competitive drive. You'd expect Thibs to do that, but he seems to truly believe it and he's not one to give false praise.

One particularly noteworthy piece of the stat comparison with Butler is Butler's 4 rebounds in 26 minutes compared to Wiggins' 4 boards in 37 minutes. I don't know Jimmy Butler's advanced defensive stats in his second season, but I'd wager they were much better than Andrew's. Hence the doubt that all of us, including you, share when it comes to Wiggins becoming an all-around player. What's frustrating is that he has the physical tools to be a great (not just good) defender and rebounder at his position. But I'm still clinging to the hope, with some degree of confidence, that he can improve significantly in those areas. I base that on his physical gifts, but also on Thibs' belief in Andrew's competitive drive and the influence of Jimmy Butler. In any event, what's really encouraging about Andrew on the offensive end was his improved 3-point shooting last season and his prolific and improving scoring at such a young age.

Taking a step back and looking at Wiggins from a broader perspective, it's still to early to proclaim him a disappointment relative to his potential. And I'm all in on offering him the max 5-year deal sooner rather than later. Surrounded by Butler and Taj, playing on what should now be a winning team, I can see Wiggins' game taking a huge leap across his stat line this coming season. That's my optimistic spin, but I also think it's realistic.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Let's look at a season stat comparison:

GP GS MIN FGM-A FG% 3PM-A 3P% FTM-A FT% OR DR REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS

82 20 26.0 2.9-6.2 .467 0.5-1.3 .381 2.3-2.8 .803 1.7 2.3 4.0 1.4 0.4 1.0 1.2 0.8 8.6

82 82 37.2 8.6-19.1 .452 1.3-3.5 .356 5.0-6.6 .760 1.2 2.8 4.0 2.3 0.4 1.0 2.2 2.3 23.6

You can probably easily guess who the 2nd stat line belongs to, it was Wiggins last year. The first is probably more difficult. What we have here is a comparison between Jimmy Butler and Andrew at a comparable age. It was Butler's 2nd season and Wiggins' third. In fact, Butler would have been a little older during this snap shot in time. Now you can say this doesn't mean anything today, and that even within these numbers you can see some problems with Wiggins line. But to me this is an indictment on the lack of patience this board has with Andrew Wiggins. We all agree that he is supremely gifted as an athlete and basketball player. Given that and what is illustrated above, I just can't understand why he wouldn't be given more rope. Maybe he doesn't ever become a jack of all trades shooting guard. He probably doesn't. But what's wrong with a career trajectory that demonstrates the potential of a top 10 player in the league? Give him the max without even thinking about it at this point.

His comps to other great players are usually pretty strong. I always found it puzzling that people seem upset that his progress has been exactly in line with how he was scouted. He was always going to take time as he relied more heavily on athleticism than core fundamental basketball skills for so long. He continues to do things on the court that amaze me, and from what I see his fundamental skills keep improving. His footwork has become excellent, now he will have some on court guidance for team defensive concepts. The sky is still the limit as far as I see it.

I just want to clarify something with people about Wiggins. We talk about his competitive drive and we see conflicting reports. As Lip has noted above, both Flip and Thibs deny that he has issues with his drive.

So I think there's a slight difference in what people talk about when discussing drive or motor. I believe he has the desire to work hard. I believe he practises hard. I believe he works hard in the offseason to improve his game. I believe he puts in the hours necessary to improve. What he seems to lack is a more instinctive Bulldog in the way he plays. The instaneous decision to dive for a ball or wait for it to come to him.

On the one hand, the work ethic should allow him to continue to develop and improve. On the other hand, an instinctive mongrel can be difficult to change or train. It may develop with maturity. And we know that conscious focus on things can become stored as instinctive behaviours.

Is that consistent with what others mean when they talk about motor or competitive drive in Wiggins?

Shumway wrote:I just want to clarify something with people about Wiggins. We talk about his competitive drive and we see conflicting reports. As Lip has noted above, both Flip and Thibs deny that he has issues with his drive.

So I think there's a slight difference in what people talk about when discussing drive or motor. I believe he has the desire to work hard. I believe he practises hard. I believe he works hard in the offseason to improve his game. I believe he puts in the hours necessary to improve. What he seems to lack is a more instinctive Bulldog in the way he plays. The instaneous decision to dive for a ball or wait for it to come to him.

On the one hand, the work ethic should allow him to continue to develop and improve. On the other hand, an instinctive mongrel can be difficult to change or train. It may develop with maturity. And we know that conscious focus on things can become stored as instinctive behaviours.

Is that consistent with what others mean when they talk about motor or competitive drive in Wiggins?

I think you nailed it, Shumway.

lipoli390 wrote:

Shumway wrote:I just want to clarify something with people about Wiggins. We talk about his competitive drive and we see conflicting reports. As Lip has noted above, both Flip and Thibs deny that he has issues with his drive.

So I think there's a slight difference in what people talk about when discussing drive or motor. I believe he has the desire to work hard. I believe he practises hard. I believe he works hard in the offseason to improve his game. I believe he puts in the hours necessary to improve. What he seems to lack is a more instinctive Bulldog in the way he plays. The instaneous decision to dive for a ball or wait for it to come to him.

On the one hand, the work ethic should allow him to continue to develop and improve. On the other hand, an instinctive mongrel can be difficult to change or train. It may develop with maturity. And we know that conscious focus on things can become stored as instinctive behaviours.

Is that consistent with what others mean when they talk about motor or competitive drive in Wiggins?

I think you nailed it, Shumway.

Yep

I'd give WIg the 5 years now, if for no other reason than we would have him locked down and that makes him a more valuable asset whether we trade or keep him. I am worried about how he fits in with the new team.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Shumway wrote:I just want to clarify something with people about Wiggins. We talk about his competitive drive and we see conflicting reports. As Lip has noted above, both Flip and Thibs deny that he has issues with his drive.

So I think there's a slight difference in what people talk about when discussing drive or motor. I believe he has the desire to work hard. I believe he practises hard. I believe he works hard in the offseason to improve his game. I believe he puts in the hours necessary to improve. What he seems to lack is a more instinctive Bulldog in the way he plays. The instaneous decision to dive for a ball or wait for it to come to him.

On the one hand, the work ethic should allow him to continue to develop and improve. On the other hand, an instinctive mongrel can be difficult to change or train. It may develop with maturity. And we know that conscious focus on things can become stored as instinctive behaviours.

Is that consistent with what others mean when they talk about motor or competitive drive in Wiggins?

I think you nailed it, Shumway.

Yep

Yup, that is absolutely how I have always viewed Wiggins. This isn't an issue of a guy not putting in the time in the gym, getting up reps, wanting to play well, etc. But when in the heat of battle, he often lacks that extra gear or doggedness that so many of "the greats" have possessed. And we can pooh-pooh the stats, but sorry, when a guy like him literally has taken one charge in his entire career....I mean, really!? God made nearly the perfect athlete for making chase down blocks in Andrew Wiggins, yet I've never seen him do it. Hell, Brandon Rush made two or three chase down blocks last year alone, and he's a 30-something year old playing on bad knees.....

It's just a lack of that 5th or 6th gear or dogged instinct that comes naturally for some guys - he doesn't have it.