Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:KAT's tweet to Jimmy Butler: "I was bringing Wolves to playoffs with or w/o you. I'm so happy to have someone to share the burden."

I sensed the Butler acquisition has touched a bit of a nerve with KAT. And that's a good thing! My read is that KAT perceives the Butler signing as a challenge to him and his ability to lead this team. That's how I would have expected KAT to react, but I would have predicted a more politically correct response like, "I look forward to playing with a proven allstar and veteran leader who can help us get to the next level." I love that KAT tweeted what I would have expected him to actually be feeling. KAT has a competitive fire in him. I saw it in him every game fighting for rebounds and fighting for low post position. Butler should help fuel that fire even more, especially on the defensive end. This is what JVG was talking about when he said he hoped Butler's arrival shakes up our current young talent a bit.

I haven't seen the press conference yet, but I listened to Butler's interview on Barriero today. Butler's impressive. Very smart and a real straight-shooter. Among other things, Butler said that he and KAT are flying to LA together, which will give them a chance to get to start bonding. Wiggins will be in LA and Butler said he expects to start getting to know Wiggins out there this summer. I wonder what Wiggins is thinking right now. I'd like to believe his reaction is similar to KAT's -- i.e., O.K., great. I'm happy to have this guy join the beat. But Butler's not going to eclipse me. I'll show him, Thibs and the fans what I'm made of.

Robson rips on KAT for the hubris quite a bit. I think he called it "ass kissing teacher's pet attitude" in the last podcast. The passive aggressive teacher's pet is kind of interesting way to look at KAT's personality. Butler is on their turf and already marking his territory. In the press conference I love how he said no one is going to be more in the community than him. He is already creating the competition around being the best human. I think you are spot on with how it likely is affecting KAT and Wiggins. I hope the result is exactly what you are talking about. That they step up to the challenge. I don't believe either of them really saw the door with KG because he was just too old to show them exactly what it was going to take. This is next level with Jimmy. The shake up is good. Imagine if we can land another vet with clout?

Doper -- I disagree with Robson. Robson can call it passive-aggressive. I really don't care what psycho babble label people want to put on it. It's the sentiments conveyed that matter, not the manner in which those sentiments are delivered. People complain about KAT always saying "the right thing." Well, in this case, the spontaneity facilitated by twitter gave us a glimpse into the real KAT, largely unfiltered. And I like what I saw.

KAT should feel challenged. His ego should be a bit bruised. You don't achieve what Towns has achieved to date at such a young age without being hypercompetitive -- especially at his position. I've seen that competitiveness in KAT watching the physical combat he engages in down low on every single offensive position and then fighting again on the boards as he accumulated over 12 boards a game at age 20 in his second NBA season. He has a lot of fight in him and now he's been challenged to show that same fight on the defensive end. Thibs was obviously challenging him in that regard, but the Butler acquisition amplifies that challenge enormously. I think he'll rise to the challenge.

Again, this is exactly what JVG was talking about. Based on what I've seen, I'm highly confident we're going to see Towns blossom into a very good defender over the next couple seasons. I'm less sure of Wiggins, because I haven't seen the same dog in him that I've seen in KAT. But we've all seen his enormous talent and I've seen enough moments of intensity from Wiggins to believe he can substantially raise his level of play on the defensive end. I just hope he's having the same sort of reaction to the Butlers acquisition that Towns reveals in a rare candid moment on twitter.

lipoli390 wrote:Doper -- I disagree with Robson. Robson can call it passive-aggressive. I really don't care what psycho babble label people want to put on it. It's the sentiments conveyed that matter, not the manner in which those sentiments are delivered. People complain about KAT always saying "the right thing." Well, in this case, the spontaneity facilitated by twitter gave us a glimpse into the real KAT, largely unfiltered. And I like what I saw.

KAT should feel challenged. His ego should be a bit bruised. You don't achieve what Towns has achieved to date at such a young age without being hypercompetitive -- especially at his position. I've seen that competitiveness in KAT watching the physical combat he engages in down low on every single offensive position and then fighting again on the boards as he accumulated over 12 boards a game at age 20 in his second NBA season. He has a lot of fight in him and now he's been challenged to show that same fight on the defensive end. Thibs was obviously challenging him in that regard, but the Butler acquisition amplifies that challenge enormously. I think he'll rise to the challenge.

Again, this is exactly what JVG was talking about. Based on what I've seen, I'm highly confident we're going to see Towns blossom into a very good defender over the next couple seasons. I'm less sure of Wiggins, because I haven't seen the same dog in him that I've seen in KAT. But we've all seen his enormous talent and I've seen enough moments of intensity from Wiggins to believe he can substantially raise his level of play on the defensive end. I just hope he's having the same sort of reaction to the Butlers acquisition that Towns reveals in a rare candid moment on twitter.

Passive aggressive was my addition. Brit was saying he wants KAT to get rid of saying what everyone wants to hear. I think it is more of a battle of saving face KAT which is why I used passive-aggressive. I think KAT wants to be the best at everything, the hyper-competitive attitude which you mention. This makes him go to great lengths to try and manufacture the perfect statement, the perfect response to questions, and to take every facet of winning and losing on his own shoulders. That tweet seems similar to KAT saying during the year that everything falls on his shoulders when we lose and that he has to do more. It's great that KAT acknowledges the need to improve but these statements negate the purpose of team. I love that Jimmy has been talking team first in everything. He's going to be amazing. There's clearly another leader in town. KAT should be intimidated. It will improve him. It's going to improve Wiggins even more I believe. Two talented wings is going to allow Wiggins to work on one skill at a time rather than having to try and take it all on at once.

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Doper -- I disagree with Robson. Robson can call it passive-aggressive. I really don't care what psycho babble label people want to put on it. It's the sentiments conveyed that matter, not the manner in which those sentiments are delivered. People complain about KAT always saying "the right thing." Well, in this case, the spontaneity facilitated by twitter gave us a glimpse into the real KAT, largely unfiltered. And I like what I saw.

KAT should feel challenged. His ego should be a bit bruised. You don't achieve what Towns has achieved to date at such a young age without being hypercompetitive -- especially at his position. I've seen that competitiveness in KAT watching the physical combat he engages in down low on every single offensive position and then fighting again on the boards as he accumulated over 12 boards a game at age 20 in his second NBA season. He has a lot of fight in him and now he's been challenged to show that same fight on the defensive end. Thibs was obviously challenging him in that regard, but the Butler acquisition amplifies that challenge enormously. I think he'll rise to the challenge.

Again, this is exactly what JVG was talking about. Based on what I've seen, I'm highly confident we're going to see Towns blossom into a very good defender over the next couple seasons. I'm less sure of Wiggins, because I haven't seen the same dog in him that I've seen in KAT. But we've all seen his enormous talent and I've seen enough moments of intensity from Wiggins to believe he can substantially raise his level of play on the defensive end. I just hope he's having the same sort of reaction to the Butlers acquisition that Towns reveals in a rare candid moment on twitter.

Passive aggressive was my addition. Brit was saying he wants KAT to get rid of saying what everyone wants to hear. I think it is more of a battle of saving face KAT which is why I used passive-aggressive. I think KAT wants to be the best at everything, the hyper-competitive attitude which you mention. This makes him go to great lengths to try and manufacture the perfect statement, the perfect response to questions, and to take every facet of winning and losing on his own shoulders. That tweet seems similar to KAT saying during the year that everything falls on his shoulders when we lose and that he has to do more. It's great that KAT acknowledges the need to improve but these statements negate the purpose of team. I love that Jimmy has been talking team first in everything. He's going to be amazing. There's clearly another leader in town. KAT should be intimidated. It will improve him. It's going to improve Wiggins even more I believe. Two talented wings is going to allow Wiggins to work on one skill at a time rather than having to try and take it all on at once.

It's hilarious how pissed off Britt is about stuff Towns says but...I think sometimes he has a point. Personally I found Towns tweet annoying and comes off pretty arrogant. My guess is This stuff Towns says has no malice or particular bad ego he just doesn't know what he is doing and is trying to assert himself. It's not always going to go right.

Some guys say all kinds of good stuff and sound so good in public and you wonder if is a legit. I knew a public figure in a very different sphere and even though I really liked what I heard publicly it was always in my mind if the guy was genuine and there were already a few people that said out load they didn't think he was because...who could be? I ended up crossing paths with him on a more personal level playing some sports with him and ending up getting to know him well enough to know he was a genuinely good and very talented person. Is Towns really a guy that does all this stuff and it's pretty denounce or at least has a positive intent? Probably. I don't see anything that says it is otherwise but we will see.

Back to Butler...I read some article that Wade was really good for him last year and helped mentor him in how to lead and interact with young players which wa simpoetant after some stuff that happened. Obviously not everything went well last year in Chicago but if he got some good advice from Wade that's probably worth something. Butler tried his hand at being a vocal leader and...it didn't go too well. He can share that with Towns and help him out.

Wiggins...probably is thrilled there is an even bigger name so he can talk to media folks even less! Lol Butler will also get him some easier shots and guard better players. It also seems Wiggins raises his game when games have something with raised stakes and adding Butler raised stakes for the expectations plus...Lavine is gone and while I think Towns and Wiggins likely both understand this is a business that just got a little more real too.

One other thought from Britt and Britt from their podcast about the move they mentioned Dieng was the loser in this deal because he worked so well with Lavine but then Robison said he could see him working well with Butler also. Their podcast had some interesting insights and while Robson goes bonkers sometimes he has some very worthwhile takes.

I'm just not a huge fan of KAT acting like it was all on his shoulders since KG left. It's still a team sport. He should be talking about what he can do to lift the team to new levels, not drag them along with him. It's probably just immaturity because he's so young and thinks that's the right attitude to have, but the best players know it's on them to bring the best out of their team. Hopefully Butler can get that message across to KAT and Wiggins.

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Doper -- I disagree with Robson. Robson can call it passive-aggressive. I really don't care what psycho babble label people want to put on it. It's the sentiments conveyed that matter, not the manner in which those sentiments are delivered. People complain about KAT always saying "the right thing." Well, in this case, the spontaneity facilitated by twitter gave us a glimpse into the real KAT, largely unfiltered. And I like what I saw.

KAT should feel challenged. His ego should be a bit bruised. You don't achieve what Towns has achieved to date at such a young age without being hypercompetitive -- especially at his position. I've seen that competitiveness in KAT watching the physical combat he engages in down low on every single offensive position and then fighting again on the boards as he accumulated over 12 boards a game at age 20 in his second NBA season. He has a lot of fight in him and now he's been challenged to show that same fight on the defensive end. Thibs was obviously challenging him in that regard, but the Butler acquisition amplifies that challenge enormously. I think he'll rise to the challenge.

Again, this is exactly what JVG was talking about. Based on what I've seen, I'm highly confident we're going to see Towns blossom into a very good defender over the next couple seasons. I'm less sure of Wiggins, because I haven't seen the same dog in him that I've seen in KAT. But we've all seen his enormous talent and I've seen enough moments of intensity from Wiggins to believe he can substantially raise his level of play on the defensive end. I just hope he's having the same sort of reaction to the Butlers acquisition that Towns reveals in a rare candid moment on twitter.

Passive aggressive was my addition. Brit was saying he wants KAT to get rid of saying what everyone wants to hear. I think it is more of a battle of saving face KAT which is why I used passive-aggressive. I think KAT wants to be the best at everything, the hyper-competitive attitude which you mention. This makes him go to great lengths to try and manufacture the perfect statement, the perfect response to questions, and to take every facet of winning and losing on his own shoulders. That tweet seems similar to KAT saying during the year that everything falls on his shoulders when we lose and that he has to do more. It's great that KAT acknowledges the need to improve but these statements negate the purpose of team. I love that Jimmy has been talking team first in everything. He's going to be amazing. There's clearly another leader in town. KAT should be intimidated. It will improve him. It's going to improve Wiggins even more I believe. Two talented wings is going to allow Wiggins to work on one skill at a time rather than having to try and take it all on at once.

I generally agree with all your points on this, Doper. The only thing I'll add is that a lot of great players, including MJ, Charles Barkley and Shaq highlighted themselves in public statements. Of course, those guys backed it up on the court. KAT actually does back up a lot of it on the court when you look at his scoring and rebounding numbers as a 20 year old 2nd year player. Now he needs to show it on the defensive end. If he does, he can talk all he wants about himself and his burden. I just like the fact that acquiring Butler has clearly gotten under his skin. That's good for him and for the team.

khans2k5 wrote:I'm just not a huge fan of KAT acting like it was all on his shoulders since KG left. It's still a team sport. He should be talking about what he can do to lift the team to new levels, not drag them along with him. It's probably just immaturity because he's so young and thinks that's the right attitude to have, but the best players know it's on them to bring the best out of their team. Hopefully Butler can get that message across to KAT and Wiggins.

I agree totally. His selfishness really hurt our team last year. He has a lot of frowning up to do. He hustles when stats are involved but fails to rotate on defense possession after possession. That's the definition of selfishness to me. Every time he went for a rebound last year I was scare he was going to hurt one of his own teammates. His ego is bruised and that's a good thing.

Okay, I think we are trying to read far too much into KAT's text. Couldn't he just be expressing his confidence we were headed to the playoffs before the Butler trade, but he's happy Butler is here to help make it happen?!?

I mean, the guy showed up to the press conference to show his support. And Jimmy acknowledged it. I think his actions show where his heart is, and his words are being misinterpreted.

monsterpile wrote:LST I don't buy that Thibs was that low on either Dunn or Lavine. Glen and I believe Thibs both said they wouldn't have done the deal if they hadn't gotten back #16. Windhorst said Chicago should have called their bluff. Thibs doesn't seem like a guy that plays the media game and I tend to agree with Wolfson when he says Glen might be too honest at times. So that means they still valued those 2...and that pick. I think Thibs liked both of those guys still but adding Butler is a no brainer unless he those both of those guys were going to be really high level players. Butler is a really good player there is no shame in giving up something you like to get a player that good. I think its more how good Butler is than the holes in either player but yeah sure they had them.

Yeah, and I think the starter for Thibs to even consider trading Lavine (especially Lavine AND Dunn) was a 2 way star. The fact that we keep hearing how Lavine is one of the hardest working guys in the league, plus the minutes he played Lavine, tells me Thibs was very much in favor of keeping him.

lipoli390 wrote:

KAT should feel challenged. His ego should be a bit bruised. You don't achieve what Towns has achieved to date at such a young age without being hypercompetitive -- especially at his position. I've seen that competitiveness in KAT watching the physical combat he engages in down low on every single offensive position and then fighting again on the boards as he accumulated over 12 boards a game at age 20 in his second NBA season. He has a lot of fight in him and now he's been challenged to show that same fight on the defensive end. Thibs was obviously challenging him in that regard, but the Butler acquisition amplifies that challenge enormously. I think he'll rise to the challenge.

My judgement is that it's simply an issue of maturity. Lip, I agree that KAT absolutely has the hyper-competitive behaviour. I also think he's a genuinely good guy who wants to do whatever it takes to help the team win. But I think he potentially confuses what it does actually take to achieve success. KAT seems to think that winning relies on him scoring more points and getting more rebounds - they're the most visible things a player can add to a team. Whereas success probably stems more from defensive efforts that assist team defence, and from facilitating others so the whole team can function together.

So I'm not sure that being challenged is what Butler provides. I don't think KAT needs to be challenged. I think he's incredibly self-motivated and challenges himself. But what I hope Butler can provide is a more effective way for KAT to channel his competitiveness. An ability to lead by example and show KAT what is needed to move the needle in the wins column.

As much as I held out hope for our core of KAT, Wigg and Lavine to organically improve, there was always a risk that they wouldn't just naturally progress. A risk that all the losing would lead to bad habits rather than just being part of the process. The argument for veteran leadership was about being able to teach by example. That is a real synergy that I'm hopeful is created by adding Butler.