Minnesota Sports Forum

Shumway wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:. I'm fairly certain I'm the only board member who has been a season ticket holder since day 1. That's right...I was there in the metrodome on that glorious night in 1989 when Tony Campbell scored 38 to lead them to their first ever win.

And this right here... this is an outstanding quote. That is really cool. It's what's great about this board - a collection of really genuine Wolves supporters.

EDIT: Whoops, I tried to just cut part of the previous quotes and it seems to have attributed LSTs section to Abe. Sorry.

I was gonna say that aint me...

Although I do remember that glorious night in 1989. And a Pooh Richardson jersey is one of only two NBA jerseys I'd ever own.

Chris Mullin would be my first choice though.

I agree about needed a great coach. Look at Brad Stevens and what he has done with the Celtics. They don't have their two best players are running a bunch of young guys and might make the finals.

WolvesFan21 wrote:I agree about needed a great coach. Look at Brad Stevens and what he has done with the Celtics. They don't have their two best players are running a bunch of young guys and might make the finals.

It's always hard for me to capture the actual importance of a coach. Do they play a role in teams success.....certainly. But how much? That seems difficult to assess. Could it be that the guys we like so much on this squad just aren't as good as the players on that Celtics team? Could it actually be about the players? Or, with Brad Stevens, would we have been on par with the Houston's and GS Warriors of the world this year? Not sure.

Hicks123 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:I agree about needed a great coach. Look at Brad Stevens and what he has done with the Celtics. They don't have their two best players are running a bunch of young guys and might make the finals.

It's always hard for me to capture the actual importance of a coach. Do they play a role in teams success.....certainly. But how much? That seems difficult to assess. Could it be that the guys we like so much on this squad just aren't as good as the players on that Celtics team? Could it actually be about the players? Or, with Brad Stevens, would we have been on par with the Houston's and GS Warriors of the world this year? Not sure.

Yeah, I think a lot of it is a mystery. Look at Nate McMillan. He kind of washed out for a few years there and now he's suddenly overachieving in Indiana. No one thought that team could win 48 games this season. Was that all based on Oladipo's improvment? Did McMillan do something to facilitate his improvement by giving him a vote of confidence and telling to fire away, no questions asked?

I think a lot of the mystery is the chemistry between the coach and players. They have to be able to connect and be on the same page. Some coaches get a group of guys they connect with and then with a different group it just doesn't work and they may struggle to adapt their style.

In my opinion, Thibs the GM needs to sign guys that are willing to take a hill for Thibs the Coach. I'm not sure his current roster is on the same page with him, with the exception of may be Butler and Gibson.

Q12543 wrote:

Hicks123 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:I agree about needed a great coach. Look at Brad Stevens and what he has done with the Celtics. They don't have their two best players are running a bunch of young guys and might make the finals.

It's always hard for me to capture the actual importance of a coach. Do they play a role in teams success.....certainly. But how much? That seems difficult to assess. Could it be that the guys we like so much on this squad just aren't as good as the players on that Celtics team? Could it actually be about the players? Or, with Brad Stevens, would we have been on par with the Houston's and GS Warriors of the world this year? Not sure.

Yeah, I think a lot of it is a mystery. Look at Nate McMillan. He kind of washed out for a few years there and now he's suddenly overachieving in Indiana. No one thought that team could win 48 games this season. Was that all based on Oladipo's improvment? Did McMillan do something to facilitate his improvement by giving him a vote of confidence and telling to fire away, no questions asked?

I think a lot of the mystery is the chemistry between the coach and players. They have to be able to connect and be on the same page. Some coaches get a group of guys they connect with and then with a different group it just doesn't work and they may struggle to adapt their style.

In my opinion, Thibs the GM needs to sign guys that are willing to take a hill for Thibs the Coach. I'm not sure his current roster is on the same page with him, with the exception of may be Butler and Gibson.

The other thing is let's say you decide to hire a coach. Are you getting the right guy that is the next Brad Stevens (or whoever you think is a difference maker) or do you get the next mediocre or even worse guy? You really don't know. Who would have predicted Fizdale would have lost his job the way he did fueding with Marc Gasol? He is likely to get another job but he shows how getting the new guy is still a risk. Like Q said McMillen guided a roster nobody thought would be all that good to a pretty good season. He has to get some credit for what happened there. Is he now an above average coach? We will see. I used to think he was actually better than he was perceived to be but what that team accomplished this year surprised me like pretty much everyone.

Q your point about Thibs bringing in certain guys that fit his culture I think is not insignificant. We don't have that much info to go on but it SEEMS like Jefferson and MGH are those types of guys. Of course it helps when they probably don't have a ton of options and are still fighting just to have a place in the league but they do seem to be that type so maybe they don't have much of a choice to buy in. It feels like the Wolves need a Manu type guy or maybe even Tony Parker that brings some joy/creativity to the court and probably to the locker room. Obviously we aren't going to find the next Manu but it just feels like this team needs one guy to give this team some sort of boast in a few ways while still fitting into what Thibs is trying to build and yet just enough personality to shake things up or lighten things up. Maybe that's just a volume 3 point shooter that still can defend and play hard with some grit and or fun loving personality.

Monster, I agree that Jefferson and MGH are "Thibs kind of guys". I think anyone that has to sort of pay their dues and slog it out in the G-League qualifies as a "Thibs guy". The reason is typically they don't feel entitled to anything and just feel fortunate to be in the NBA. These are the types of players that will play defense as if their life depended on it.

The question on those two is more around their skills and talent. We haven't seen enough of either to really know. I know in the limited time I saw MGH play, I was not impressed. He seems like a do-shit, gritty type player, but then you look at his per minute averages and it's pretty horrible across the board. Jefferson was awesome in the G-league...don't know how that translates.

Q12543 wrote:Monster, I agree that Jefferson and MGH are "Thibs kind of guys". I think anyone that has to sort of pay their dues and slog it out in the G-League qualifies as a "Thibs guy". The reason is typically they don't feel entitled to anything and just feel fortunate to be in the NBA. These are the types of players that will play defense as if their life depended on it.

The question on those two is more around their skills and talent. We haven't seen enough of either to really know. I know in the limited time I saw MGH play, I was not impressed. He seems like a do-shit, gritty type player, but then you look at his per minute averages and it's pretty horrible across the board. Jefferson was awesome in the G-league...don't know how that translates.

I this your assessment of both guys is pretty good. I think with MGH one problem with looking for those Q score catagories I think he was miscast in some ways. For the most part on defense he was tasked (or considered that his task) to stick like glue to his guy and do almost nothing else. There are a lot of those type guys that don't get the rebounds etc because their job is to do one thing guard one guy. On the offensive end he was basically just a dude that was supposed to stand in the corner and never get the ball because nobody was ever going to get it to him (Jamal...). Was he supposed to crash the glass to get rebounds or get back on D? Idk he wasn't a Marcus Smart type impact player that's for sure (how many guys are?) but it felt like to some extent he didn't really get enough opportunity to show what he could do. We only have what we saw though (only 224) minutes played the whole season) and after looking more solid early on he wasn't quite as intruiging even defensively although...his defense would have been welcome compared to Crawford certainly. Jon K said there was never a question about whether they were picking up his salary when the deadline came they liked his potential and Thibs throwing him into some spots as a defender make you wonder if he does actually value him. Only time will tell I guess. We need a guy like him to become worthwhile and we should expect an MGH or Jefferson or someone to emerge. It's what good franchises do. It's not realistic to assume every guy is gonna be good not even the Spurs make everyone look good (it's close though!).

If Thibodeau really valued MGH a lot, woudn't he have given him more playing time? If Thibs saw Jefferson as his type of player, why didn't he play him at all? Either he doesn't value them a whole lot or he does but can't get himself as head coach to step outside his comfort zone of big minutes to a relatively small rotation of players he's used to. Either way, it doesn't bode well for the development or discovery of talent.

lipoli390 wrote:If Thibodeau really valued MGH a lot, woudn't he have given him more playing time? If Thibs saw Jefferson as his type of player, why didn't he play him at all? Either he doesn't value them a whole lot or he does but can't get himself as head coach to step outside his comfort zone of big minutes to a relatively small rotation of players he's used to. Either way, it doesn't bode well for the development or discovery of talent.

Im not saying that MGH or Jefferson would/are any good at the NBA level, but traditionally Thibs doesn't like playing younger players.

In his first year with the Bulls, 2nd year player Taj Gibson played 21 minutes a game, Asik played 12 minutes per game, James Johnson played 13 total games at 9 minutes a game before getting traded as a 2nd year player.

In Thibs 2nd year as a head coach, Thibs played one of his favorite players of all time, our own Jimmy Butler a grand total of 42 games at 8 minutes a game.

In Thibs 3rd year M. Teague played 48 games at 8 minutes a game.

In Thibs 4th year Tony Snell played in 72 games at 12 minutes a game.

In Thibs 5th year Doug Mccdermott played 36 games at 9 minutes a game, Mirotic played in every game at 20 minutes a game.

Thibs 1st year as the Wolves coach Dunn played in 72 games at 17 minutes per game.

Thibs this last year Patton was hurt and MGH played in 42 games at 6 minutes.

So in Thibs whole career he really hasn't played his young guys many minutes. Thibs second best player he has ever had in Butler played in only half the game in 8 minutes a game. Now we can disagree with his philosiphy how he plays young guys. But every player I listed besides M.Teague is still in the league (technically Teague got signed late last year) and all but M.Teague and maybe Doug Mccdermott have developed under thibs to get a big contract and become a quality role player in the league.

So I wouldn't put much stock into Thibs not playing MGH or Jefferson much this year. I am not also saying that those 2 are NBA caliber players but Thibs has a good resume in developing his young players into at least a solid rotation piece in the NBA.

Q12543 wrote:

Hicks123 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:I agree about needed a great coach. Look at Brad Stevens and what he has done with the Celtics. They don't have their two best players are running a bunch of young guys and might make the finals.

It's always hard for me to capture the actual importance of a coach. Do they play a role in teams success.....certainly. But how much? That seems difficult to assess. Could it be that the guys we like so much on this squad just aren't as good as the players on that Celtics team? Could it actually be about the players? Or, with Brad Stevens, would we have been on par with the Houston's and GS Warriors of the world this year? Not sure.

Yeah, I think a lot of it is a mystery. Look at Nate McMillan. He kind of washed out for a few years there and now he's suddenly overachieving in Indiana. No one thought that team could win 48 games this season. Was that all based on Oladipo's improvment? Did McMillan do something to facilitate his improvement by giving him a vote of confidence and telling to fire away, no questions asked?

I think a lot of the mystery is the chemistry between the coach and players. They have to be able to connect and be on the same page. Some coaches get a group of guys they connect with and then with a different group it just doesn't work and they may struggle to adapt their style.

In my opinion, Thibs the GM needs to sign guys that are willing to take a hill for Thibs the Coach. I'm not sure his current roster is on the same page with him, with the exception of may be Butler and Gibson.

Then Thibs the GM has really be screwing up. He gave Gorgui a very lucrative long term extension. He gave Wiggins a max extension. His signature free agent signings were Teague, who criticized Thibodeau several times this season, and Jamaal Crawford who wants out after one season under Thibs. Thibs drafted Dunn, yet Dunn was feuding with him and wanted out by the end of last season. It took $28 million over two years to get Taj here and a trade to get Butler here. Only two of Thibodeau's seven acquisitions/signings I mentioned appear to be the type of player inclined to "take a hill" for Thibodeau. Seems that Thibs the head coach could benefit from a better GM than the one who shares the same name.

My view is a bit different, Q. I think it's the GM's job to acquire as much talent as possible, not bring guys who are all in on the coach. Then it's the head coaches job to adapt and get the most out of the players he's given. As I indicated in my prior post, I can't say that Thibodeau is a bad head coach. Similarly, I can't say he's a bad GM. But in my view, he doesn't measure up to the level of excellence we have to expect in both roles if we expect to be a championship contender. I don't like giving both roles to one individual. But the advantage of doing so, is that you know who to hold accountable. No matter how you slice it, Thibodeau should get full credit for all this team's success, but he should also be held fully accountable for its failings. KAT is the only player on this roster who doesn't have Thibodeau's stamp either as an acquisition or a big contract extension. And even KAT has Thibodeau's stamp to some degree as a core part of what Thibodeau called the best young roster in the NBA after watching a ton of games and video footage.