Minnesota Sports Forum

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:So what is it exactly you attribute the slow start to?

1. Thibs running the offense through the wings and bigs more than Rubio. They are assisting on fewer baskets and playing more isolation ball. LaVine and Wiggins are not natural play makers and are capable of making only the most basic passes. That doesn't mean they can't improve and clearly Thibs is trying to develop them, but I have seen minimal improvement on this front through their first two seasons.

2. Rubio and Dunn have shot the ball terribly, even by Rubio's historical standards.

3. Team defense still sucks, especially when the offense sputters. This is almost 100% on the starters, as these are the guys that have been annihilated in 3rd quarters. It's hard for me to pinpoint any one or two guys not defending well, so I will simply give equal part blame to all five starters as well as Coach Thibs.

I am curious why it is hard for you to pinpoint and say that Rubio and Lavine have been awful defensively? I get your point that team D means all share responsibility. But these two routinely get burned. My personal take is that Wiggins, Towns and G all can man defend. Rubio used to be able to but I think he is not in shape for whatever reason. Lavine should be able to but lacks any kind of focus. The team concepts are weak for everyone it seems, but when the guards routinely breakdown on their individual coverage it is very challenging for the rest of the team to constantly make up the slack. You should not have to help on guards as much as we do, even thought there are a lot of talented guards in the NBA.

Wile E Coyote wrote:In my opinion the blown leads, bench play, and poor defense are all related.

Ideally, if a starter plays lazy or inattentive defense, Thibs brings in a solid guy off the bench.This leads to several related things:
* Team starts playing a bit better and tougher, avoiding a huge 20-3 run by the other team
* Starter realizes he has to play better D to get minutes
* Team realizes Thibs is serious about playing better D
* Starter gets more rest, meaning he will have more energy when he comes back in later

Right now we have the opposite dynamic
* Thibs keeps starters in because bench is so bad
* Starters don't feel direct consequences of bad D
* Starters tire, leading to worse D
* Bad D and tired players leads to a huge 20-3 run by the other team
* Thibs finally gets desparate and puts in bench players
* Bench players don't play much better D
* Thibs goes back to tired starters after 5 minutes

If the Wolves are going to salvage this season (which Thibs might not be worred about doing), they are going to need to trade some guys for better fits on the bench.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:So what is it exactly you attribute the slow start to?

1. Thibs running the offense through the wings and bigs more than Rubio. They are assisting on fewer baskets and playing more isolation ball. LaVine and Wiggins are not natural play makers and are capable of making only the most basic passes. That doesn't mean they can't improve and clearly Thibs is trying to develop them, but I have seen minimal improvement on this front through their first two seasons.

2. Rubio and Dunn have shot the ball terribly, even by Rubio's historical standards.

3. Team defense still sucks, especially when the offense sputters. This is almost 100% on the starters, as these are the guys that have been annihilated in 3rd quarters. It's hard for me to pinpoint any one or two guys not defending well, so I will simply give equal part blame to all five starters as well as Coach Thibs.

I am curious why it is hard for you to pinpoint and say that Rubio and Lavine have been awful defensively? I get your point that team D means all share responsibility. But these two routinely get burned. My personal take is that Wiggins, Towns and G all can man defend. Rubio used to be able to but I think he is not in shape for whatever reason. Lavine should be able to but lacks any kind of focus. The team concepts are weak for everyone it seems, but when the guards routinely breakdown on their individual coverage it is very challenging for the rest of the team to constantly make up the slack. You should not have to help on guards as much as we do, even thought there are a lot of talented guards in the NBA.

To be fair, today's NBA is more about team defense than one-on-one battles. There aren't many guys in the NBA who can stop penetration one-on-one with quick, athletic, talented guards.

I think the entire Wolves squad struggles to maintain basic team principles after one or two and definitely three offensive moves/sets/passes.

I think that's where a guy like LaVine struggles the most... along with most young guys.

There was that classic gif of the Wolves vs. SA last season where laVine and others didn't even know where to look for the ball. (I can't find it though!!!)

Q12543 wrote:

Wile E Coyote wrote:In my opinion the blown leads, bench play, and poor defense are all related.

Ideally, if a starter plays lazy or inattentive defense, Thibs brings in a solid guy off the bench.This leads to several related things:
* Team starts playing a bit better and tougher, avoiding a huge 20-3 run by the other team
* Starter realizes he has to play better D to get minutes
* Team realizes Thibs is serious about playing better D
* Starter gets more rest, meaning he will have more energy when he comes back in later

Right now we have the opposite dynamic
* Thibs keeps starters in because bench is so bad
* Starters don't feel direct consequences of bad D
* Starters tire, leading to worse D
* Bad D and tired players leads to a huge 20-3 run by the other team
* Thibs finally gets desparate and puts in bench players
* Bench players don't play much better D
* Thibs goes back to tired starters after 5 minutes

If the Wolves are going to salvage this season (which Thibs might not be worred about doing), they are going to need to trade some guys for better fits on the bench.

But how bad is our bench? I realize they don't score a ton of points, but the On/Off numbers don't necessarily suggest they are that horrible (and yes, I know there is a lot of noise in On/Off). Also, aren't two unexpected bright spots - Tyus and Payne - both bench players?

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:So what is it exactly you attribute the slow start to?

1. Thibs running the offense through the wings and bigs more than Rubio. They are assisting on fewer baskets and playing more isolation ball. LaVine and Wiggins are not natural play makers and are capable of making only the most basic passes. That doesn't mean they can't improve and clearly Thibs is trying to develop them, but I have seen minimal improvement on this front through their first two seasons.

2. Rubio and Dunn have shot the ball terribly, even by Rubio's historical standards.

3. Team defense still sucks, especially when the offense sputters. This is almost 100% on the starters, as these are the guys that have been annihilated in 3rd quarters. It's hard for me to pinpoint any one or two guys not defending well, so I will simply give equal part blame to all five starters as well as Coach Thibs.

I am curious why it is hard for you to pinpoint and say that Rubio and Lavine have been awful defensively? I get your point that team D means all share responsibility. But these two routinely get burned. My personal take is that Wiggins, Towns and G all can man defend. Rubio used to be able to but I think he is not in shape for whatever reason. Lavine should be able to but lacks any kind of focus. The team concepts are weak for everyone it seems, but when the guards routinely breakdown on their individual coverage it is very challenging for the rest of the team to constantly make up the slack. You should not have to help on guards as much as we do, even thought there are a lot of talented guards in the NBA.

To be fair, today's NBA is more about team defense than one-on-one battles. There aren't many guys in the NBA who can stop penetration one-on-one with quick, athletic, talented guards.

I think the entire Wolves squad struggles to maintain basic team principles after one or two and definitely three offensive moves/sets/passes.

I think that's where a guy like LaVine struggles the most... along with most young guys.

There was that classic gif of the Wolves vs. SA last season where laVine and others didn't even know where to look for the ball. (I can't find it though!!!)

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:So what is it exactly you attribute the slow start to?

1. Thibs running the offense through the wings and bigs more than Rubio. They are assisting on fewer baskets and playing more isolation ball. LaVine and Wiggins are not natural play makers and are capable of making only the most basic passes. That doesn't mean they can't improve and clearly Thibs is trying to develop them, but I have seen minimal improvement on this front through their first two seasons.

2. Rubio and Dunn have shot the ball terribly, even by Rubio's historical standards.

3. Team defense still sucks, especially when the offense sputters. This is almost 100% on the starters, as these are the guys that have been annihilated in 3rd quarters. It's hard for me to pinpoint any one or two guys not defending well, so I will simply give equal part blame to all five starters as well as Coach Thibs.

I am curious why it is hard for you to pinpoint and say that Rubio and Lavine have been awful defensively? I get your point that team D means all share responsibility. But these two routinely get burned. My personal take is that Wiggins, Towns and G all can man defend. Rubio used to be able to but I think he is not in shape for whatever reason. Lavine should be able to but lacks any kind of focus. The team concepts are weak for everyone it seems, but when the guards routinely breakdown on their individual coverage it is very challenging for the rest of the team to constantly make up the slack. You should not have to help on guards as much as we do, even thought there are a lot of talented guards in the NBA.

To be fair, today's NBA is more about team defense than one-on-one battles. There aren't many guys in the NBA who can stop penetration one-on-one with quick, athletic, talented guards.

I think the entire Wolves squad struggles to maintain basic team principles after one or two and definitely three offensive moves/sets/passes.

I think that's where a guy like LaVine struggles the most... along with most young guys.

There was that classic gif of the Wolves vs. SA last season where laVine and others didn't even know where to look for the ball. (I can't find it though!!!)

I'm not expecting either of them to stop anyone. Just to try, to fight through screens, to make the initial set up of the offense take 8 seconds instead of 2. One on one battles still matter. There is a reason PGs go off on us, it can't be overlooked. If your first line of defense is an afterthought it is hard to apply an effective team concept. I agree that the bigs can have a bigger impact and our are learning team concepts. But 2 elements stink at iso principles (especially Zach) it is hard to make up ground.

Q12543 wrote:But how bad is our bench? I realize they don't score a ton of points, but the On/Off numbers don't suggest they are that horrible (and yes, I know there is a lot of noise in On/Off). Also, aren't two unexpected bright spots - Tyus and Payne - both bench players? And while Dunn has been awful offensively, I think his defense looks pretty good for a rookie.