Minnesota Sports Forum

LST -- You thoughts align with mine, but I gave Thibs a slightly higher grade of B- for this offseason and a B overall. I gave him more credit than you for keeping his powder dry last season. And I'm giving him slightly more credit than you this offseason for attempting to shape the roster to reflect the type of team he likes -- a team built around toughness and defense, with a PG who scores on dribble penetration. In other words, he's trying to build a team in the image of the Bulls teams he coached -- his glory years. Butler and Taj not only represent the tough, defensive-oriented players he likes, but they actually were core members of his Bulls team. Teague is no Derrick Rose, but his game comes far close than Ricky's to the way Rose played.

The only rub in all this is the Crawford signing. Crawford isn't known for his defense and that's an understatement. So you'd think that Thibs was perhaps willing to sign a poor defender for sake of improved 3-point shooting. But then you look and see that Crawford is a career 35% 3-point shooter, which by today's NBA standards is mediocre at best. Doogie said the Wolves looked at Arron Afflalo. I'd love to know what Thibs was thinking in passing one Afflalo for Crawford given that Afflalo is a better defender AND a better 3-point shooter.

Thibs has substantially upgraded our starting five. But disturbingly, we have no two-way wing players to come off the bench, no proven elite 3-point shooters on the roster and Tyus Jones as our sole backup PG. I'm not sure how Thibs can remedy these shortcomings with nothing to work with other than the vet minimum. But we'll see.

My bottom line is this. Thibs has made the moves he wanted to make to shape the roster to his liking. And he still has his favorite player from last season, Gorgui, along with the two elite young players, KAT and Wiggins, inherited from Flip. Now there will be no excuses for Thibs the coach. He has to deliver this coming season. And by deliver, I mean more than barely making the playoffs with a 7th or 8th seed.

Lip - I cannot say I am "all in" on Crawford, but I will say that unlike Afflalo, Crawford is a player who can "make something happen". Who on our bench last year could make something happen with any sort of consistency? Bazz in the post?

So I suppose that is what Crawford brings to the table that Thibs felt was missing last year. That, and a ton of experience, including playoff experience.

60WinTim wrote:Lip - I cannot say I am "all in" on Crawford, but I will say that unlike Afflalo, Crawford is a player who can "make something happen". Who on our bench last year could make something happen with any sort of consistency? Bazz in the post?

So I suppose that is what Crawford brings to the table that Thibs felt was missing last year. That, and a ton of experience, including playoff experience.

Hard to know, Tim. Your explanation makes some sense. But I've always seen Afflalo as a guy who can make things happen. He's always been a good and highly efficient scorer and decent ballhandler. I wonder if there is something else going on. To begin with, it's surprising that Afflalo is still available and gettable for the vet minimum. Perhaps there are some attitude issues there that we're not aware of, but that contributed to Thibs' decision to pass on him. But given Crawford's reputation as a poor defender, why not sign a much better 3-point shooter who doesn't defend like Luke Babbit? But again, there's so much we don't know. I'd love to have the chance to ask Thibs in private about these decisions.

I think a lot of what is getting lost in this discussion is that all the contracts Thibs gave out were short. Just for the sake of giving all of the vets short contracts that will easily be moved for assets I would give him a B. You can argue with the signings and the quality of player, but these are all great contracts. There is nothing wrong with a large contract as long as it is short. Thibs and Layden have already shown they can get deals done, if we need to shed Taj or Crawford I have confidence they'll get it done and probably upgrade our team in the process.

lipoli390 wrote:

60WinTim wrote:Lip - I cannot say I am "all in" on Crawford, but I will say that unlike Afflalo, Crawford is a player who can "make something happen". Who on our bench last year could make something happen with any sort of consistency? Bazz in the post?

So I suppose that is what Crawford brings to the table that Thibs felt was missing last year. That, and a ton of experience, including playoff experience.

Hard to know, Tim. Your explanation makes some sense. But I've always seen Afflalo as a guy who can make things happen. He's always been a good and highly efficient scorer and decent ballhandler. I wonder if there is something else going on. To begin with, it's surprising that Afflalo is still available and gettable for the vet minimum. Perhaps there are some attitude issues there that we're not aware of, but that contributed to Thibs' decision to pass on him. But given Crawford's reputation as a poor defender, why not sign a much better 3-point shooter who doesn't defend like Luke Babbit? But again, there's so much we don't know. I'd love to have the chance to ask Thibs in private about these decisions.

Afflalo just isn't a make something happen guy. He doesn't have a great handle and doesn't create off the dribble. He's a 3&D wing. If he could create off the dribble he'd already be off the board. Meanwhile most of Crawford's game is off the dribble. He's basically another scoring PG on the floor when he plays. Last season we had nobody who could create offense off the dribble coming off the bench. He's a major upgrade in that capacity. He's a hot and cold shooter which is why he ends up at league average, but we finally have a bench player who can win you a game. We haven't had that in a long time.

The overrating of Rubio and underrating of Teague is getting hilarious. I'm starting to more fully understand why Porkchop went full Porkchop. Lol

The narrative that Teague was brought because he fits Thibs way of doing things is also kinda hilarious. I'm sure the league is littered with coaches that are looking for a pass first PG that can't shoot or score that does a lot of good things. Yep I'm sure their are a lot of coaches out there that are looking for a guy like that to fit their system. Lol lol lol. Most coaches and GMs around the league would be looking to do something different. It's not like Teague fits some super specialized fit for Thibs.

And then there is the talk about Thibs not bringing in enough shooting but basically gloss over Teague is a pretty big upgrade in that department mostly because if you are honest with yourself Rubio hasn't proved he is anything more than very below average as a shooter period. If you believe in him fine but you better acknowledge the reality he may never be even a little below average in that area. Some people seem to just assume it was gina happen or he was going to overcome that with some sort of wizardry. Could that happen? Sure I wouldn't have hated seeing if it could happen but we got something back for Rubio...time to move on. The Jazz may have a solid fit for him or they may even be suckers. Regardless Rubio is the first passing PG they have had since D-will. It will probably seem really good to have a player like him there.

Meanwhile Teague can do a little over everything. He can penetrate more than Rubio and he isn't just a scoring PG he is usually a top 10 assist guy. You would think we traded Rubio and signed a 29 year old Ridnour or something.

It's funny how Thibs gets ripped for bringing in his guys or guys that fit his vision or whatever and that's seen as a negative but some people here won't let go of their guy Rubio for a player that not only fits better (but of course Thibs doesn't know how to construct a roster) but may actually even be a better player.

I've gone on long enough. I respect everyone's opinions but I had to share how I see it. I've already been wrong on a few things when it comes to the NBA just in the last 4 weeks some of which I am pretty happy about! There will be more things I will be wrong about so we will see how things work out.

60WinTim wrote:Lip - I cannot say I am "all in" on Crawford, but I will say that unlike Afflalo, Crawford is a player who can "make something happen". Who on our bench last year could make something happen with any sort of consistency? Bazz in the post?

So I suppose that is what Crawford brings to the table that Thibs felt was missing last year. That, and a ton of experience, including playoff experience.

Not a huge fan of his game... but he can be that mercurial scorer/energy guy off the bench that can occasionally steal a game. I think those guys have legit value in the NBA.

I've also heard that Crawford is a very popular guy on/off the court with teammates.

I give the offseason a solid B. Getting Butler is an absolute home run. He's a great all around player. In Teague, Gibson, and Crawford, the Wolves got veterans that have been to the playoff a bunch and we're all keys to getting there team there. Gibson really helps on the defensive end. Rubio and Wiggins with Butler would be a lot like what the Bulls put next to Butler last year in Wade and Rondo. That wasn't exactly a fit. Teague is a fit and a solid PG. Crawford gets you points off the bench and is capable of giving the offense a jolt when needed.

Building a winning basketball team goes much further than talent. Yes you need talent to when, but teams that play smart and don't beat themselves win a ton of games and win playoff games. Thibs added grit, mental toughness, and playoff experience. While that all doesn't show up in the box score it makes a world of difference.

monsterpile wrote:The overrating of Rubio and underrating of Teague is getting hilarious. I'm starting to more fully understand why Porkchop went full Porkchop. Lol

The narrative that Teague was brought because he fits Thibs way of doing things is also kinda hilarious. I'm sure the league is littered with coaches that are looking for a pass first PG that can't shoot or score that does a lot of good things. Yep I'm sure their are a lot of coaches out there that are looking for a guy like that to fit their system. Lol lol lol. Most coaches and GMs around the league would be looking to do something different. It's not like Teague fits some super specialized fit for Thibs.

And then there is the talk about Thibs not bringing in enough shooting but basically gloss over Teague is a pretty big upgrade in that department mostly because if you are honest with yourself Rubio hasn't proved he is anything more than very below average as a shooter period. If you believe in him fine but you better acknowledge the reality he may never be even a little below average in that area. Some people seem to just assume it was gina happen or he was going to overcome that with some sort of wizardry. Could that happen? Sure I wouldn't have hated seeing if it could happen but we got something back for Rubio...time to move on. The Jazz may have a solid fit for him or they may even be suckers. Regardless Rubio is the first passing PG they have had since D-will. It will probably seem really good to have a player like him there.

Meanwhile Teague can do a little over everything. He can penetrate more than Rubio and he isn't just a scoring PG he is usually a top 10 assist guy. You would think we traded Rubio and signed a 29 year old Ridnour or something.

It's funny how Thibs gets ripped for bringing in his guys or guys that fit his vision or whatever and that's seen as a negative but some people here won't let go of their guy Rubio for a player that not only fits better (but of course Thibs doesn't know how to construct a roster) but may actually even be a better player.

I've gone on long enough. I respect everyone's opinions but I had to share how I see it. I've already been wrong on a few things when it comes to the NBA just in the last 4 weeks some of which I am pretty happy about! There will be more things I will be wrong about so we will see how things work out.

Well Monster, as I've mentioned before, personally I see the transactions that brought us Teague and the OKC pick in exchange for Rubio as close to a wash, although I'd have slightly preferred keeping Ricky.

But as the whether your view is so one-sidedly correct that the opposing view makes you laugh, let's look at what Jon K learned from talking to some top basketball people in Vegas the past few days. I just heard Jon on Barriero. Jon said the responses he's gotten from highly respected NBA guys on the Teague for Rubio swap has been mixed. Jon said, on the positive side, were those who told him Teague would be a better fit offensively for Thibs, running the pick-and-roll with Towns and spacing the floor. Yes, a better fit, not necessarily a better player. On the negative side were those who told Jon they thought Rubio was the better PG overall with Ricky being the better passer and better defender. Jon went on to say there were a few who said there are questions about whether Teague maintains consistent effort and intensity which these guys thought might ultimately put him on the outs with Thibs. This is the one that disturbs me. Actually, Jim Pete said essentially the same thing in a radio interview a week ago.

So while you're so confidently dismissive of those on this board who question Thibs on this, there are apparently a number of respected NBA insiders who also question the move. As Jon K said, the reactions he's gotten from those NBA folks in Vegas has been mixed. Not surprisingly, the reactions from those on this message board have also been mixed. I guess you consider those who disagree with you on this hilariously misguided. I guess you're easily amused.

TRKO wrote:I give the offseason a solid B. Getting Butler is an absolute home run. He's a great all around player. In Teague, Gibson, and Crawford, the Wolves got veterans that have been to the playoff a bunch and we're all keys to getting there team there. Gibson really helps on the defensive end. Rubio and Wiggins with Butler would be a lot like what the Bulls put next to Butler last year in Wade and Rondo. That wasn't exactly a fit. Teague is a fit and a solid PG. Crawford gets you points off the bench and is capable of giving the offense a jolt when needed.

Building a winning basketball team goes much further than talent. Yes you need talent to when, but teams that play smart and don't beat themselves win a ton of games and win playoff games. Thibs added grit, mental toughness, and playoff experience. While that all doesn't show up in the box score it makes a world of difference.

I agree TRKO. Our issues last year weren't talent. They were getting the right pieces to fit together (part of that was playing style, part is veteran leadership). Some sideways moves can prove very valuable if they go towards building a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts.