Minnesota Sports Forum

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:But we got it right with Ricky and we got it right with KAT. Now we have to assemble the other pieces.

How can you say we got it right with Ricky when we can't sniff a winning record with him? That makes no sense. I don't understand this notion that PG doesn't need to be upgraded on this team when the team has been 1 game above .500 at best with him as a main piece. "We're the worst franchise of all time so let's just keep trotting out what we know doesn't win games.". Makes perfect sense.

So should Anthony Davis be upgraded in New Orleans then?

I know where you're going with it...
But that's such a reach that I had to call you on it.


[Note: By the way, Anthony Davis has been over .500 and made the playoffs as THE guy.]

Anthony Davis is a much superior player to Rubio - that is obvious. But despite him being a franchise-level talent, he STILL has been on a losing squad for 3 out of 4 seasons and barely squeaked into the playoffs the other time where his team ended up being swept. So I guess he's just not good enough, right?

I wouldn't say that... no.

New Orleans won 45 games in a good conference last season... winning 8 of its final 11 games, including a victory in game #82 vs. the defending champs playing for the #2 seed and homecourt advantage. Anthony Davis went for 31/13 in that make-or-break game. They were swept vs. the 67-win and future champion Warriors... largely because of 4th quarter woes. NO was tied entering the 4th quarter in Game 2 and were up 20 in Game 3.

Davis averaged 32 / 11 / 3 blk / 54% fg in that series. The Pelicans' next best player was Eric Gordon. Nobody else averaged more than 10 ppg. And the team's 2nd leading scorer during the regular season shot below 33%.

The Pelicans won more games than the previous season for 3 straight seasons with Davis making huge strides in each of them... until the team regressed and Davis plateaued this season amid a rash of injuries. Former Wolves bench player, Dante Cunningham, is starting next to Davis.

So... no... I think he's good enough to be part of a championship team. I don't know if Rubio is though.

Well, I actually agree with you, but therein lies the silliness. Of course Anthony Davis is good enough to be on a team that wins, and wins a lot. But New Orleans has had one decent season in his four years on the job and they didn't get very far in that one season.

So why is it that Rubio - who most of his biggest proponents on this board agree is not a top 5 PG - is to blame for never being on a team that was .500 or more, yet Anthony Davis - who is the best PF in the game - gets a free pass? Aren't injuries, crappy team mates, coaching carousels, etc. just as applicable to Rubio as they are to Anthony Davis?

We're not Pelicans fans. I am sure if Rubio is part of us winning he will shoulder some of the accolades of winning. He is a leader of this team and a very important piece as the dominant ball handler and defender of opposing PGs with a lot of talent league wide. As the placeholder in that position he needs to be accountable for our record to a certain extant. His deficiencies factor into our situation as much as anyone since PGs tear us apart and he holds the ball a lot on the other side. Whether its "truly fair" based on selected measures (advanced stats, eye tests) or not remains to be seen. Ultimately it is a team game, but PG is a uniquely important position, especially in today's game. A lot like QBs.

Yes, agree. And we know that the team consistently does better when he's on the court versus off of it. And not only does it do better on a relative basis, his career plus/minus rating when he's on the court is +2.2, meaning we generally outplay our opponents when he's in the game. So is it his fault the thing falls to pieces when he's on the bench?

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Phenom's_Revenge wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Phenom's_Revenge wrote:I don't know if any of you have seen this but Brad Stevens was asked specifically about the ability to win with Rubio.

http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/2016/02/24/brad-stevens-on-poor-shooting-point-guards-theres-different-ways-to-win/

Does anyone know if this Stevens guy knows the game?

To be fair, did you expect an opposing coach to rip the starting PG for the team he's about to play that night?

No but I also wouldn't expect him to speak glowingly about him unless he really liked him. There are probably easier answers to show indifference.

Meh. Maybe it was savvy coach-speak from a professional when lobbed a question by the hometown media. I never take those kinds of things as gospel.

Relevant or not... less than 2 months into his first season... Stevens shipped out another pass-first PG that has many similar qualities to Ricky Rubio.

I did chuckle at the bold part. Rondo was more or less shipped out because he was a year removed from an ACL tear and broke his hand in the first month of that season, all while being on the last year of his contract while the Celtics were beginning a rebuild. Not to mention the Mavericks were willing to offer Crowder, Wright, Nelson, a 2015 first round pick and a 2016 second round pick. Those are the reasons why Rondo was dealt, not his play-style or some inability to do what Stevens wanted him to.

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

D'Natagal wrote:So if we have the #1 offense and Ricky cannot shoot, what am I missing? Would the Wolves be scoring 10 pts /game more if he could shoot? Ricky can be the floor general, draw fouls, rebound and defend, do we really need an offensive minded point guard? I would rather keep the offense as is but have a coach with some defensive schemes that the players can work with. #stoptheRickyhate

Playoff games are grind it out half court wars that you can't win with a primary ball handler who can't shoot. We can run and score a bunch of points and be fun in the regular season, but come playoff time games slow down, refs swallow their whistles and it becomes time to battle and we don't have a defense or a half court offense that can win that battle.

True.

But let's see if the team can win 1/3 of its games first. Then, 1/2 its games. Then, make the playoffs...

So we should just keep fighting to get to .500 with the same PG who's never helped us get more than a game over .500 and then get whooped in the playoffs before realizing he's not gonna work? Seems stupid to me to wait until he has to be moved before moving him. That would lower his value wouldn't it because teams would know we need to get rid of him?

I find the suggestion that we maybe should get rid of Ricky before other teams figure out that he can't win in the playoffs a little oversimplified. First of all, if all of us rube have it figured out, then so do the other 29 teams... so we'll get nothing for him now or later.

But more important, I just don't think it's true. Yes, playoff basketball is more of a grind it out, half court game. But teams don't just play PG and Big PnR, they put the ball into the best player's hands. If that's a PG like Curry, so be it, but if it's Lebron, Wade, or Harden, it's because that player is the right one to execute the PnR... and the PG is on the court for other reasons. In that case, Ricky would see plenty of open 3's... and his shooting percentage is much more an issue of not being able to finish at the rim than his 3-point shooting.

Right now, Lavine and Wiggins play mediocre to awful defense... and Towns and Dieng get abused inside. That's a lot bigger issue on our way to playoff basketball than our PG. Sure I'd love to have a Top-5 PG, but we have a ton of other issues to resolve before that one.

Camden wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Phenom's_Revenge wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Phenom's_Revenge wrote:I don't know if any of you have seen this but Brad Stevens was asked specifically about the ability to win with Rubio.

http://hardwoodparoxysm.com/2016/02/24/brad-stevens-on-poor-shooting-point-guards-theres-different-ways-to-win/

Does anyone know if this Stevens guy knows the game?

To be fair, did you expect an opposing coach to rip the starting PG for the team he's about to play that night?

No but I also wouldn't expect him to speak glowingly about him unless he really liked him. There are probably easier answers to show indifference.

Meh. Maybe it was savvy coach-speak from a professional when lobbed a question by the hometown media. I never take those kinds of things as gospel.

Relevant or not... less than 2 months into his first season... Stevens shipped out another pass-first PG that has many similar qualities to Ricky Rubio.

I did chuckle at the bold part. Rondo was more or less shipped out because he was a year removed from an ACL tear and broke his hand in the first month of that season, all while being on the last year of his contract while the Celtics were beginning a rebuild. Not to mention the Mavericks were willing to offer Crowder, Wright, Nelson, a 2015 first round pick and a 2016 second round pick. Those are the reasons why Rondo was dealt, not his play-style or some inability to do what Stevens wanted him to.

"Relevant or not..."

I did see your precursor, so, you're good on that. I'm just debating from the stance of "no, it's not relevant."

petecorcoran wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

D'Natagal wrote:So if we have the #1 offense and Ricky cannot shoot, what am I missing? Would the Wolves be scoring 10 pts /game more if he could shoot? Ricky can be the floor general, draw fouls, rebound and defend, do we really need an offensive minded point guard? I would rather keep the offense as is but have a coach with some defensive schemes that the players can work with. #stoptheRickyhate

Playoff games are grind it out half court wars that you can't win with a primary ball handler who can't shoot. We can run and score a bunch of points and be fun in the regular season, but come playoff time games slow down, refs swallow their whistles and it becomes time to battle and we don't have a defense or a half court offense that can win that battle.

True.

But let's see if the team can win 1/3 of its games first. Then, 1/2 its games. Then, make the playoffs...

So we should just keep fighting to get to .500 with the same PG who's never helped us get more than a game over .500 and then get whooped in the playoffs before realizing he's not gonna work? Seems stupid to me to wait until he has to be moved before moving him. That would lower his value wouldn't it because teams would know we need to get rid of him?

I find the suggestion that we maybe should get rid of Ricky before other teams figure out that he can't win in the playoffs a little oversimplified. First of all, if all of us rube have it figured out, then so do the other 29 teams... so we'll get nothing for him now or later.

But more important, I just don't think it's true. Yes, playoff basketball is more of a grind it out, half court game. But teams don't just play PG and Big PnR, they put the ball into the best player's hands. If that's a PG like Curry, so be it, but if it's Lebron, Wade, or Harden, it's because that player is the right one to execute the PnR... and the PG is on the court for other reasons. In that case, Ricky would see plenty of open 3's... and his shooting percentage is much more an issue of not being able to finish at the rim than his 3-point shooting.

Right now, Lavine and Wiggins play mediocre to awful defense... and Towns and Dieng get abused inside. That's a lot bigger issue on our way to playoff basketball than our PG. Sure I'd love to have a Top-5 PG, but we have a ton of other issues to resolve before that one.

Not sure if Ricky made any 3s in the last two games or not but before that he was on a 5-36 tear from deep. Ricky is not a capable 3pt shooter . IMO

petecorcoran wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

D'Natagal wrote:So if we have the #1 offense and Ricky cannot shoot, what am I missing? Would the Wolves be scoring 10 pts /game more if he could shoot? Ricky can be the floor general, draw fouls, rebound and defend, do we really need an offensive minded point guard? I would rather keep the offense as is but have a coach with some defensive schemes that the players can work with. #stoptheRickyhate

Playoff games are grind it out half court wars that you can't win with a primary ball handler who can't shoot. We can run and score a bunch of points and be fun in the regular season, but come playoff time games slow down, refs swallow their whistles and it becomes time to battle and we don't have a defense or a half court offense that can win that battle.

True.

But let's see if the team can win 1/3 of its games first. Then, 1/2 its games. Then, make the playoffs...

So we should just keep fighting to get to .500 with the same PG who's never helped us get more than a game over .500 and then get whooped in the playoffs before realizing he's not gonna work? Seems stupid to me to wait until he has to be moved before moving him. That would lower his value wouldn't it because teams would know we need to get rid of him?

I find the suggestion that we maybe should get rid of Ricky before other teams figure out that he can't win in the playoffs a little oversimplified. First of all, if all of us rube have it figured out, then so do the other 29 teams... so we'll get nothing for him now or later.

But more important, I just don't think it's true. Yes, playoff basketball is more of a grind it out, half court game. But teams don't just play PG and Big PnR, they put the ball into the best player's hands. If that's a PG like Curry, so be it, but if it's Lebron, Wade, or Harden, it's because that player is the right one to execute the PnR... and the PG is on the court for other reasons. In that case, Ricky would see plenty of open 3's... and his shooting percentage is much more an issue of not being able to finish at the rim than his 3-point shooting.

Right now, Lavine and Wiggins play mediocre to awful defense... and Towns and Dieng get abused inside. That's a lot bigger issue on our way to playoff basketball than our PG. Sure I'd love to have a Top-5 PG, but we have a ton of other issues to resolve before that one.

Thanks for sharing your perspective I've really enjoyed your posts chiming in on Rubio.

Camden0916 wrote:All-time PER leaders for starting PGs with under 10 points per game:

18.1 Ricky Rubio 15-16
17.7 Mark Jackson 99-00
17.2 Mark Jackson 97-98

And you chuckled becuz I used plus minus on a KG topic. Here you are using PER . How many times have you lol'd at someone using that metric for their argument? Interesting!

Yes we have other problems than Ricky that need to be addressed. That doesn't mean we should just wait to cross the Ricky bridge when we come to it. If you think it might be a problem moving forward then you better have a backup plan because by the time it matters we might have 3 max guys on the team and no money to fix the problem. If you think it might be a problem and you have a chance to plug that hole before it becomes a crater then I think you should do it. I'm not saying dump Ricky to dump him, but there was clearly some interest for him at the deadline so I am definitely taking calls on him and even making a few to see if we can plug that hole rather than wait and hope it's not a problem.

PorkChop wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:All-time PER leaders for starting PGs with under 10 points per game:

18.1 Ricky Rubio 15-16
17.7 Mark Jackson 99-00
17.2 Mark Jackson 97-98

And you chuckled becuz I used plus minus on a KG topic. Here you are using PER . How many times have you lol'd at someone using that metric for their argument? Interesting!

I didn't even include that in a Rubio argument... I just thought it was an interesting stat find from a Twitter account I follow. Did Ricky Rubio do something to you personally? Yeesh. Settle down, save that sarcasm for a day that actually calls for it.