Minnesota Sports Forum

Thibs failed in Chicago because his offense failed in Chicago. They had no way of getting easy baskets and part of that is having guards who aren't great shooters (Rose when he played and Butler). Bringing in Butler isn't the answer here. He's just a more developed version of Wiggins. If we are trading 5 I want to fill an actual hole on the roster, not just add a similar player to what we have.

khans2k5 wrote:Thibs failed in Chicago because his offense failed in Chicago. They had no way of getting easy baskets and part of that is having guards who aren't great shooters (Rose when he played and Butler). Bringing in Butler isn't the answer here. He's just a more developed version of Wiggins. If we are trading 5 I want to fill an actual hole on the roster, not just add a similar player to what we have.

There are those who believe you can never have enough good two-way wing players in today's NBA.

Considering the Wolves don't have any (YET)... I can see why some would champion such a trade. In fact, the Wolves would have the potential to have two of the better two-way wings if Wiggins develops and Butler gives the Wolves what he gave Chicago. Those guys can switch anything and both can score.

The three point issue can't be ignored. But there's always a trade-off, right?

?@DWolfsonKSTP Darren Wolfson
Good work from Marc. Word is Bulls won't do if AW not involved. If wanted to move JB, bet Bos. would give up No. 3.

khans2k5 wrote:Thibs failed in Chicago because his offense failed in Chicago. They had no way of getting easy baskets and part of that is having guards who aren't great shooters (Rose when he played and Butler). Bringing in Butler isn't the answer here. He's just a more developed version of Wiggins. If we are trading 5 I want to fill an actual hole on the roster, not just add a similar player to what we have.

I agree with the "Butler isn't the answer here" take. I am going to nitpick, though.

Thibs didn't "fail" in Chicago. If five consecutive playoff berths and a win percentage of 64.7 is failing, then I'll gladly take some failure in Minnesota. Why he didn't go further in the playoffs is more so because of roster makeup and decimating injuries, though, his offense being too simplistic is a legitimate concern.

In the end, I don't see this trade rumor having legs. Would Thibs love to have Butler? Absolutely. I don't believe he's willing to move the pieces necessary to get him, however, and that's a very good thing.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Thibs failed in Chicago because his offense failed in Chicago. They had no way of getting easy baskets and part of that is having guards who aren't great shooters (Rose when he played and Butler). Bringing in Butler isn't the answer here. He's just a more developed version of Wiggins. If we are trading 5 I want to fill an actual hole on the roster, not just add a similar player to what we have.

There are those who believe you can never have enough good two-way wing players in today's NBA.

Considering the Wolves don't have any (YET)... I can see why some would champion such a trade. In fact, the Wolves would have the potential to have two of the better two-way wings if Wiggins develops and Butler gives the Wolves what he gave Chicago. Those guys can switch anything and both can score.

The three point issue can't be ignored. But there's always a trade-off, right?

There doesn't have to be a trade-off. Thibs could choose instead to actually coach up this young team and turn a guy like Lavine (who has the tools) into a two way player and Lavine can already shoot the ball. Lavine has one of the highest ceilings in the NBA with his shooting touch, athleticism and handling. He needs to put on some weight and develop his basketball IQ and you're looking at a guy who could be a bigger force than Butler. Butler is a great player, but I think Wiggins is in the same mold with his scoring potency and individual defensive potency. If Thibs is such a great coach he should be able to help Lavine and Wiggins both become better players than Butler because they both came into the league with better tools than Butler did.

Camden0916 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Thibs failed in Chicago because his offense failed in Chicago. They had no way of getting easy baskets and part of that is having guards who aren't great shooters (Rose when he played and Butler). Bringing in Butler isn't the answer here. He's just a more developed version of Wiggins. If we are trading 5 I want to fill an actual hole on the roster, not just add a similar player to what we have.

I agree with the "Butler isn't the answer here" take. I am going to nitpick, though.

Thibs didn't "fail" in Chicago. If five consecutive playoff berths and a win percentage of 64.7 is failing, then I'll gladly take some failure in Minnesota. Why he didn't go further in the playoffs is more so because of roster makeup and decimating injuries, though, his offense being too simplistic is a legitimate concern.

In the end, I don't see this trade rumor having legs. Would Thibs love to have Butler? Absolutely. I don't believe he's willing to move the pieces necessary to get him, however, and that's a very good thing.

I don't know too many coaches who were fired for succeeding. Your expectations might not believe he failed, but obviously he did fail to meet the expectations of the organization because he was fired.

Sounds like click bait to me as well. I wouldn't want Butler taking shots from Wiggy and Towns (plus I wanna keep Zach too). Again, I'm in the camp saying we don't need to make a big trade or free agent signing this offseason. Let it marinate.....

Zach plus #5 and pieces isn't going to get Butler, so I think we can suspend that discussion. I'm not even sure I do that deal because of the good point Lip made about the lack of 3-point shooting our roster would have.

But maybe Wiggins plus #5 isn't as preposterous as I first thought. Here's the argument for that deal:

1) Some have Butler in a select group of 2-way wings (with LeBron, Klay and Kawhi). A player mentioned in the same breath as those three is going to require a lot in return.

2) Butler is still young, and signed to a 5-year deal at $18 million per year. While that sounds like a lot of money, Wiggins is likely to command much more in 2 years (possibly $25 million on a max deal).

3) Wig is a terrific athlete and scorer, and has a chance to become one of the great players in the league. But some NBA analysts also question the consistency of his motor, and that's an element that seldom changes over time in a player. Motor is not an issue with Butler.

4) While I don't share this belief, some here suggested that Zach may have a higher ceiling than Wig. He already has a better handle and is a better 3-point shooter than Wig, and is at least as good an athlete (if not better). On a team hungry for 3-point shooting, it's not preposterous to conclude that it's easier to give up Wig than Zach.

That's the argument. I think Wig has been on everyone's radar screen for years as a future star and is already a 20-point scorer at a young age, so I am not inclined to consider the deal. But Thibs knows better than I do how good Butler is and can be, so I would not have a conniption fit if he decided to make that deal.

I honestly am amused by some of the reports we're hearing. Chicago is not interested unless Wig is part of the deal? I wouldn't trade Wig by himself for Butler. I mean really, let's come down to earth here.

Hard to know which rumors have any legs to them whatsoever, but like several others I can't see this deal ever happening. I wish the rhetoric would just go away.

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Thibs failed in Chicago because his offense failed in Chicago. They had no way of getting easy baskets and part of that is having guards who aren't great shooters (Rose when he played and Butler). Bringing in Butler isn't the answer here. He's just a more developed version of Wiggins. If we are trading 5 I want to fill an actual hole on the roster, not just add a similar player to what we have.

There are those who believe you can never have enough good two-way wing players in today's NBA.

Considering the Wolves don't have any (YET)... I can see why some would champion such a trade. In fact, the Wolves would have the potential to have two of the better two-way wings if Wiggins develops and Butler gives the Wolves what he gave Chicago. Those guys can switch anything and both can score.

The three point issue can't be ignored. But there's always a trade-off, right?

There doesn't have to be a trade-off. Thibs could choose instead to actually coach up this young team and turn a guy like Lavine (who has the tools) into a two way player and Lavine can already shoot the ball. Lavine has one of the highest ceilings in the NBA with his shooting touch, athleticism and handling. He needs to put on some weight and develop his basketball IQ and you're looking at a guy who could be a bigger force than Butler. Butler is a great player, but I think Wiggins is in the same mold with his scoring potency and individual defensive potency. If Thibs is such a great coach he should be able to help Lavine and Wiggins both become better players than Butler because they both came into the league with better tools than Butler did.

The odds are stacked against LaVine becoming as good of a two-way player as Butler regardless of the coach. But then, there's that #5 pick, too... so I can see hesitation in the trade if somebody really digs LaVine and thinks that he's going to fulfill all of his potential.

The other part of this is that the Wolves are very young. There are two trains of thought here. Some might hope for all the youngsters to mature and develop and realize their potential at near the same pace without any issues that can plague super young teams grasping for their collective and individual places in the league. They could look at OKC as proof that it can work. After all, Wiggins, Towns and LaVine each has some crazy good skills that are captivating as hell.

Others might look at such a young roster and think that a young veteran mixed in who's been through some hardened battles can help expedite the process. And IF Thibodeau views Wiggins and Towns as THE future... and consider the type of coach Thibodeau is supposed to be and consider that LaVine is a mercurial but polarizing talent with a long way to go and no guarantee that he has the acumen or "basketball IQ" to get there... using him to get one of the league's best two-way wings makes more sense.

Both approaches have merit. I prefer the latter because I believe that the NBA has a very steep learning curve. But I get the former, too. And LaVine is way ahead of projections...