Minnesota Sports Forum

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:I don't see Rubio, Dieng, and Muhammad being enough to get Millsap, honestly. You'd probably have to throw in the No. 5 pick and at that point, I think I step away.

Edit: They'd likely demand LaVine, Dieng, and No. 5.

With the value you assign to Horford and Milsap, I wonder why they aren't in the NBA finals. Teague is a quality guard as is Bazemore. With Korver and Schroder added in shouldn't they be a lot better? Unless, maybe you overrate both Horford and Milsap?

Just like all other Eastern Conference teams, they can't get past the team that has LeBron James. That's why they haven't been in the NBA Finals. Didn't they win 60 games a year ago on the way to the top overall seed? Would you like to argue that Horford/Millsap didn't carry that team?

Horford's a four-time All-Star and former All-NBA selection. Millsap's a three-time All-Star and All-Defense selection. Both are still in their primes. Perhaps I'm not overrating them and you're actually underrating them. That seems more likely to me.

Edit: Just to add to what I've already said... Millsap (10.1) was 13th in the NBA in Win Shares and Horford (9.4) was 17th. Both of those marks are higher than the following: Paul George, Damian Lillard, Jimmy Butler, Pau Gasol, and John Wall.

Or if you prefer Value Over Replacement Player (VORP), Millsap ranks 10th at 4.9 and Horford ranks 13th at 4.1. Both marks are higher than the following: Damian Lillard, Jimmy Butler, John Wall, DeAndre Jordan, Pau Gasol, Isaiah Thomas, and Gordon Hayward.

Regardless of what statistic you believe is trustworthy, Millsap and Horford are upper level players in the NBA -- easily within the top-20. That kind of player normally does not come cheap.

Camden wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:I don't see Rubio, Dieng, and Muhammad being enough to get Millsap, honestly. You'd probably have to throw in the No. 5 pick and at that point, I think I step away.

Edit: They'd likely demand LaVine, Dieng, and No. 5.

With the value you assign to Horford and Milsap, I wonder why they aren't in the NBA finals. Teague is a quality guard as is Bazemore. With Korver and Schroder added in shouldn't they be a lot better? Unless, maybe you overrate both Horford and Milsap?

Just like all other Eastern Conference teams, they can't get past the team that has LeBron James. That's why they haven't been in the NBA Finals. Didn't they win 60 games a year ago on the way to the top overall seed? Would you like to argue that Horford/Millsap didn't carry that team?

Horford's a four-time All-Star and former All-NBA selection. Millsap's a three-time All-Star and All-Defense selection. Both are still in their primes. Perhaps I'm not overrating them and you're actually underrating them. That seems more likely to me.

Edit: Just to add to what I've already said... Millsap (10.1) was 13th in the NBA in Win Shares and Horford (9.4) was 17th. Both of those marks are higher than the following: Paul George, Damian Lillard, Jimmy Butler, Pau Gasol, and John Wall.

Or if you prefer Value Over Replacement Player (VORP), Millsap ranks 10th at 4.9 and Horford ranks 13th at 4.1. Both marks are higher than the following: Damian Lillard, Jimmy Butler, John Wall, DeAndre Jordan, Pau Gasol, Isaiah Thomas, and Gordon Hayward.

Regardless of what statistic you believe is trustworthy, Millsap and Horford are upper level players in the NBA -- easily within the top-20. That kind of player normally does not come cheap.

You do a good job of finding stats to support your stance. Problem is there are always stats available to support just about any point. So I'm not impressed. The Hawks are little more than an afterthought at this point in the heavily flawed Eastern conference. If Horford and Milsap were that great, I'd expect a little more playoff success.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:I don't see Rubio, Dieng, and Muhammad being enough to get Millsap, honestly. You'd probably have to throw in the No. 5 pick and at that point, I think I step away.

Edit: They'd likely demand LaVine, Dieng, and No. 5.

With the value you assign to Horford and Milsap, I wonder why they aren't in the NBA finals. Teague is a quality guard as is Bazemore. With Korver and Schroder added in shouldn't they be a lot better? Unless, maybe you overrate both Horford and Milsap?

Just like all other Eastern Conference teams, they can't get past the team that has LeBron James. That's why they haven't been in the NBA Finals. Didn't they win 60 games a year ago on the way to the top overall seed? Would you like to argue that Horford/Millsap didn't carry that team?

Horford's a four-time All-Star and former All-NBA selection. Millsap's a three-time All-Star and All-Defense selection. Both are still in their primes. Perhaps I'm not overrating them and you're actually underrating them. That seems more likely to me.

Edit: Just to add to what I've already said... Millsap (10.1) was 13th in the NBA in Win Shares and Horford (9.4) was 17th. Both of those marks are higher than the following: Paul George, Damian Lillard, Jimmy Butler, Pau Gasol, and John Wall.

Or if you prefer Value Over Replacement Player (VORP), Millsap ranks 10th at 4.9 and Horford ranks 13th at 4.1. Both marks are higher than the following: Damian Lillard, Jimmy Butler, John Wall, DeAndre Jordan, Pau Gasol, Isaiah Thomas, and Gordon Hayward.

Regardless of what statistic you believe is trustworthy, Millsap and Horford are upper level players in the NBA -- easily within the top-20. That kind of player normally does not come cheap.

You do a good job of finding stats to support your stance. Problem is there are always stats available to support just about any point. So I'm not impressed. The Hawks are little more than an afterthought at this point in the heavily flawed Eastern conference. If Horford and Milsap were that great, I'd expect a little more playoff success.

Are you seriously arguing that Milsap and Horford are overrated because they can't beat Lebron in the playoffs? That's fucking insane. I guess that means everyone in the East except Lebron is garbage because nobody can beat his teams. The last two years they only lost to Lebron and they won their 3 other series they played. I guess the Spurs are garbage because they haven't even made the conference finals the past two years and they didn't even lose to GS either year.

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:I don't see Rubio, Dieng, and Muhammad being enough to get Millsap, honestly. You'd probably have to throw in the No. 5 pick and at that point, I think I step away.

Edit: They'd likely demand LaVine, Dieng, and No. 5.

With the value you assign to Horford and Milsap, I wonder why they aren't in the NBA finals. Teague is a quality guard as is Bazemore. With Korver and Schroder added in shouldn't they be a lot better? Unless, maybe you overrate both Horford and Milsap?

Just like all other Eastern Conference teams, they can't get past the team that has LeBron James. That's why they haven't been in the NBA Finals. Didn't they win 60 games a year ago on the way to the top overall seed? Would you like to argue that Horford/Millsap didn't carry that team?

Horford's a four-time All-Star and former All-NBA selection. Millsap's a three-time All-Star and All-Defense selection. Both are still in their primes. Perhaps I'm not overrating them and you're actually underrating them. That seems more likely to me.

Edit: Just to add to what I've already said... Millsap (10.1) was 13th in the NBA in Win Shares and Horford (9.4) was 17th. Both of those marks are higher than the following: Paul George, Damian Lillard, Jimmy Butler, Pau Gasol, and John Wall.

Or if you prefer Value Over Replacement Player (VORP), Millsap ranks 10th at 4.9 and Horford ranks 13th at 4.1. Both marks are higher than the following: Damian Lillard, Jimmy Butler, John Wall, DeAndre Jordan, Pau Gasol, Isaiah Thomas, and Gordon Hayward.

Regardless of what statistic you believe is trustworthy, Millsap and Horford are upper level players in the NBA -- easily within the top-20. That kind of player normally does not come cheap.

You do a good job of finding stats to support your stance. Problem is there are always stats available to support just about any point. So I'm not impressed. The Hawks are little more than an afterthought at this point in the heavily flawed Eastern conference. If Horford and Milsap were that great, I'd expect a little more playoff success.

Are you seriously arguing that Milsap and Horford are overrated because they can't beat Lebron in the playoffs? That's fucking insane. I guess that means everyone in the East except Lebron is garbage because nobody can beat his teams. The last two years they only lost to Lebron and they won their 3 other series they played. I guess the Spurs are garbage because they haven't even made the conference finals the past two years and they didn't even lose to GS either year.

Easy Khans. It's just a message board. Suffice to say I'm not as impressed as you and Cam are with this duo. With the enormous respect you are giving them I'd expect more. And don't mention the Hawks and the Spurs in the same context - THAT'S insane.

I think Milsap is damn good but I would not do the trade that Cam or Khans provided, Milsap is 31 and will soon be on the downside of his career (I think he will be damn good for 2-3 more years). He also has a player option making it hard to retain him, or we are going to have to pay him big money to bring him back and he will be 33 when that happens not worth giving up young assets when I don't think Milsap wins us a championship in the next 2 years. Now if we made the second round of the playoffs last year and lost to the warriors in a good series then fine make the trade to try and get over the hump but we are not even at the hump yet. I also think the Hawks would do the trade because they will soon be moving into rebuild mode.

Just to clarify, and perhaps this is unnecessary, but I wouldn't do the trade khans proposed (Rubio, Dieng, Muhammad) nor would I do the proposed that I thought it would take to get Atlanta to bite (LaVine, Dieng, and No. 5 OR Rubio, Dieng, Muhammad, and No. 5).

I have no problem making a case for Millsap because I find him to be -- without a doubt in my mind -- one of the best players in the game (top-20), but like others here I'm cautious about trading multiple valuable assets for a player that has a chance to leave as an UFA just a year from now. My opinion on that could change, but it would certainly depend on the assets that we'd be parting ways with to get him. I hope that's clear.

I typically agree with Camden quite a bit when it comes to trade value on our players. However, I disagree on what it would take to get Paul Millsap. To me, there's a big difference in trading for a 28 year old Millsap vs trading for a 31 year old Millsap. I think Atlanta would bit on Rubio OR #5 for him. Ray Allen was traded at the same age (31) for the #5 pick in a weaker draft than this one. Additionally, because the Wolves aren't contenders right now, I wouldn't trade for Millsap. And if we were, I wouldn't for the fact I think Rubio can have a more significant impact on the game since he's got the ball in his hands the entire time.

Rubio is on a good contract at $14 mil per year right now. If we picked Dunn at #5, which I'm not against, then I think you keep both and let it play out, unless you can get a solid trade partner. Otherwise just pick Hield instead and be done with it.

mrhockey89 wrote:I typically agree with Camden quite a bit when it comes to trade value on our players. However, I disagree on what it would take to get Paul Millsap. To me, there's a big difference in trading for a 28 year old Millsap vs trading for a 31 year old Millsap. I think Atlanta would bit on Rubio OR #5 for him. Ray Allen was traded at the same age (31) for the #5 pick in a weaker draft than this one. Additionally, because the Wolves aren't contenders right now, I wouldn't trade for Millsap. And if we were, I wouldn't for the fact I think Rubio can have a more significant impact on the game since he's got the ball in his hands the entire time.

Rubio is on a good contract at $14 mil per year right now. If we picked Dunn at #5, which I'm not against, then I think you keep both and let it play out, unless you can get a solid trade partner. Otherwise just pick Hield instead and be done with it.

I think it's on a take. Pre than what you are suggesting. As for if They would even consider moving Millsap it really depends on if Atlanta is planning on rebuilding or not. If they are are trying to make another run they aren't going to do any of these hypothetical deals because Millsap is the best player in the trade. Atlanta already has 2 lead guards Rubio as the headliner (or as the only thing they get back) doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I don't think Millsap is being overrated (although he did only shoot 31.9% from 3 this season but was so terrific and many other ways) but I do think Dieng's upside is not being rated fairly especially in context of what Millsap has been able to become because he was considered more of a fringe starter with solid starter upside a few years ago and now has turned into an allStar and a terrific 2 way player.
Sure I would not say Dieng's upside is as high as Millsap (although if he is a center that adds value) but consider this one factor. In Dieng's 3rd year at the age of 26 he had attempted 27 three's and hit 8 of them. Millsap in his 6th year at the age of 26 had attempted 74 three's and hit 18. Most of Dieng's three's were from the corner but there is a possibility you could have a stretch 5/4 with him hitting corner 3's. I think saying he is a finished product at the age of 26 in his 3rd season where he clearly made some pretty interesting improvements as the year went along COULD end up being premature. His FT% improving every year and shooting well over 80% this year is pretty impressive. I don't like those trades of young players to get older established players. I may be wrong but I think history tends to show that's a poor choice.