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Re: Zach Lavine is pretty good - GDT
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:13 pm
by Monster
thedoper wrote:Every time the Rubio issue is brought up I think it is fair to say that I don't hate him or his game. I feel quite simply that his weaknesses are as significant as his strengths which is why I agree on the assessment that he is somewhere around the 15th best PG in the league. I can reiterate scenarios where I think we could or may want to explore other options than Rubio.
1. Signing or trading for a PG who is better than Rubio - If we could acquire a top 10 pg I say go for it. Right now Conley is the only guy I've mentioned who may be realistic in this area and who I would move Rubio for
2. Drafting a top tier PG and let him develop along side Rubio - I am all in on this even to solve the issue of having no viable back up (sorry Tyus)
I've never said he sucks. All around he is very average, being great at some things and being not so great at others.
I've been somewhat impressed with Tyus actually and while his defense isn't good it's come along and he has had some moments on that end. Dude is a 19 year old playing mostly with young players some of them are barely NBA players and he does a pretty decent job. Oh and he can hit 3's which is a big deal for this team. I'm not opposed to adding more talent at PG but Tyus isn't chopped liver either.
Re: Zach Lavine is pretty good - GDT
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:14 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
thedoper wrote:Q12543 wrote:thedoper wrote:Q12543 wrote:Rubio led the Wolves last night in +/- with +15 and also had 10 assists and only 1 turnover. He helped fuel that big comeback after our bench dug a hole. He made a couple mistakes guarding Walker, but that dude caught fire and was hitting closely contested 3's. That shit happens in the NBA.
I think Doper has joined the club Alex and Porkchop started, where no matter what the overarching data states, every missed layup, outside shot, or defensive assignment needs to be pointed out as the reason he's such an inferior player.
"Such an inferior player" has never been the argument I made. He got torched, he gets torched a lot by superior PGs. I can't praise his intangibles and ignore his tangibles in the same breath. An individual's contribution to team defense is still not accurately assessed by the metrics available to us. That is my point. I don't buy the argument that someone gets torched one on one and is still a great team defender. You have confidence that these metrics show otherwise, I respect that I just don't agree.
....yet we never hear from you when he helps contain the likes of John Wall or Kyle Lowry. Do those games not count?
Containing the NBA's top PGs requires a team effort. Rubio is not a perfect defender, but he is a plus defender.
I agree that he is overall a good defender. I think his one on one D is a little to lenient for the shooting at the PG position still. But when some of the advanced defensive stats put him in the top 2 or 3 pgs I scratch my head a bit. That is my point. DRPM has Wes Johnson above Lebron James. I just can't quite by it yet without some better context.
I agree that DRPM can be a little noisy, but like most +/- related stats, it's good to look across large sample sizes. And here's the deal: He is #1 this year, #1 last year, and #2 the year before that. So he's been #1 or #2 for three straight seasons. Now do I think he really is the world's best PG defensively? I don't know. But when I see a consistent trend like that for three straight years, I can say pretty confidently that he is very, very good defensively.
Re: Zach Lavine is pretty good - GDT
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:18 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
monsterpile wrote:thedoper wrote:Every time the Rubio issue is brought up I think it is fair to say that I don't hate him or his game. I feel quite simply that his weaknesses are as significant as his strengths which is why I agree on the assessment that he is somewhere around the 15th best PG in the league. I can reiterate scenarios where I think we could or may want to explore other options than Rubio.
1. Signing or trading for a PG who is better than Rubio - If we could acquire a top 10 pg I say go for it. Right now Conley is the only guy I've mentioned who may be realistic in this area and who I would move Rubio for
2. Drafting a top tier PG and let him develop along side Rubio - I am all in on this even to solve the issue of having no viable back up (sorry Tyus)
I've never said he sucks. All around he is very average, being great at some things and being not so great at others.
I've been somewhat impressed with Tyus actually and while his defense isn't good it's come along and he has had some moments on that end. Dude is a 19 year old playing mostly with young players some of them are barely NBA players and he does a pretty decent job. Oh and he can hit 3's which is a big deal for this team. I'm not opposed to adding more talent at PG but Tyus isn't chopped liver either.
I think that's why they want to give him a lot of run between now and the end of the season. It's really hard for me to get over his lack of any great physical attributes. He lacks quickness, speed, size, length, strength. He's literally underwhelming in pretty much every physical/athletic category you can think of, so it's really hard to see him matching up against starting PGs night in and night out in the event he has to step in for Rubio.
Re: Zach Lavine is pretty good - GDT
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:33 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
By the way, here are the top 10 players this year in DRPM:
1. Tim Duncan
2. Draymond Green
3. Andrew Bogut
4. DeAndre Jordan
5. Ian Mahinmi
6. Kawhi Leonard
7. Bismack Biyombo
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Andre Drummond
10. Tony Allen
Mmmm, those all seem to pass the sniff test to me.
The worst in the league? Shabazz Muhammed. Ugh.
There are some wacky findings which people can cherry-pick and point to as invalidating the stat. But that ignores all the ones that DO make sense.
Re: Zach Lavine is pretty good - GDT
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:25 pm
by thedoper
Q12543 wrote:By the way, here are the top 10 players this year in DRPM:
1. Tim Duncan
2. Draymond Green
3. Andrew Bogut
4. DeAndre Jordan
5. Ian Mahinmi
6. Kawhi Leonard
7. Bismack Biyombo
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Andre Drummond
10. Tony Allen
Mmmm, those all seem to pass the sniff test to me.
The worst in the league? Shabazz Muhammed. Ugh.
There are some wacky findings which people can cherry-pick and point to as invalidating the stat. But that ignores all the ones that DO make sense.
Ian and Bismack (I watch a lot of Raptors) are alright, but honestly I scratch my head putting them as top 10 defenders. Context is key, players on teams with weak benches seem to really benefit from this stat. The outliers with this are especially strange. K Love over A Davis, Wes Johnson over Lebron. I agree that many do make sense but I am more than willing to consider that Rubio could be one of those outliers who happens to score big on the metrics this stat favors.
Re: Zach Lavine is pretty good - GDT
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:31 pm
by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
Q12543 wrote:monsterpile wrote:thedoper wrote:Every time the Rubio issue is brought up I think it is fair to say that I don't hate him or his game. I feel quite simply that his weaknesses are as significant as his strengths which is why I agree on the assessment that he is somewhere around the 15th best PG in the league. I can reiterate scenarios where I think we could or may want to explore other options than Rubio.
1. Signing or trading for a PG who is better than Rubio - If we could acquire a top 10 pg I say go for it. Right now Conley is the only guy I've mentioned who may be realistic in this area and who I would move Rubio for
2. Drafting a top tier PG and let him develop along side Rubio - I am all in on this even to solve the issue of having no viable back up (sorry Tyus)
I've never said he sucks. All around he is very average, being great at some things and being not so great at others.
I've been somewhat impressed with Tyus actually and while his defense isn't good it's come along and he has had some moments on that end. Dude is a 19 year old playing mostly with young players some of them are barely NBA players and he does a pretty decent job. Oh and he can hit 3's which is a big deal for this team. I'm not opposed to adding more talent at PG but Tyus isn't chopped liver either.
I think that's why they want to give him a lot of run between now and the end of the season. It's really hard for me to get over his lack of any great physical attributes. He lacks quickness, speed, size, length, strength. He's literally underwhelming in pretty much every physical/athletic category you can think of, so it's really hard to see him matching up against starting PGs night in and night out in the event he has to step in for Rubio.
Steve Nash would like to chime in on this post. He was missing every physical advantage as well, but he could shoot and he was a brilliant basketball player. Not saying Tyus is the next Nash, but a jump shot and smarts can make you a valuable NBA player and he has both.
Re: Zach Lavine is pretty good - GDT
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:36 pm
by thedoper
Basketball Reference has Rubio 289th on their defensive rating stat fyi. Don't really know which is better (or more accurate), but that puts him on par with Derrick Rose in terms of his D at the position. The top 20 has similar names and positions as DRPM accept with the addition of Whiteside as #1 (no wonder ESPN wanted their own stat).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_per_poss.html
Re: Zach Lavine is pretty good - GDT
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:39 pm
by thedoper
monsterpile wrote:thedoper wrote:Every time the Rubio issue is brought up I think it is fair to say that I don't hate him or his game. I feel quite simply that his weaknesses are as significant as his strengths which is why I agree on the assessment that he is somewhere around the 15th best PG in the league. I can reiterate scenarios where I think we could or may want to explore other options than Rubio.
1. Signing or trading for a PG who is better than Rubio - If we could acquire a top 10 pg I say go for it. Right now Conley is the only guy I've mentioned who may be realistic in this area and who I would move Rubio for
2. Drafting a top tier PG and let him develop along side Rubio - I am all in on this even to solve the issue of having no viable back up (sorry Tyus)
I've never said he sucks. All around he is very average, being great at some things and being not so great at others.
I've been somewhat impressed with Tyus actually and while his defense isn't good it's come along and he has had some moments on that end. Dude is a 19 year old playing mostly with young players some of them are barely NBA players and he does a pretty decent job. Oh and he can hit 3's which is a big deal for this team. I'm not opposed to adding more talent at PG but Tyus isn't chopped liver either.
Sorry I should have clarified. I think Tyus's eventual peak is a solid back up. I just don't think he's there yet but I could see it happening. I'd like someone who could legitimately compete for starting minutes as a back up and that may require a bit more talent than what I see in Tyus. But maybe he makes a huge leap next year. Great problem to have.
Re: Zach Lavine is pretty good - GDT
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:55 pm
by Brooklyn_Wolves [enjin:14608167]
thedoper wrote:Q12543 wrote:By the way, here are the top 10 players this year in DRPM:
1. Tim Duncan
2. Draymond Green
3. Andrew Bogut
4. DeAndre Jordan
5. Ian Mahinmi
6. Kawhi Leonard
7. Bismack Biyombo
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Andre Drummond
10. Tony Allen
Mmmm, those all seem to pass the sniff test to me.
The worst in the league? Shabazz Muhammed. Ugh.
There are some wacky findings which people can cherry-pick and point to as invalidating the stat. But that ignores all the ones that DO make sense.
Ian and Bismack (I watch a lot of Raptors) are alright, but honestly I scratch my head putting them as top 10 defenders. Context is key, players on teams with weak benches seem to really benefit from this stat. The outliers with this are especially strange. K Love over A Davis, Wes Johnson over Lebron. I agree that many do make sense but I am more than willing to consider that Rubio could be one of those outliers who happens to score big on the metrics this stat favors.
Lebron James plays defense when he wants to. He takes many plays off like it's not his jobs to defend and yells at his teammates for not covering his ass on D.
A. Davis is overrated defensively and outside of his blocks is not that great of a defender. Fun fact: his team defensive numbers are not effected at all whether he plays or not.
But last season his DRPM was very good and it showed in his team defensive metrics. He also blew K.Love out of the water in DPRM last year.
Re: Zach Lavine is pretty good - GDT
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:03 pm
by Brooklyn_Wolves [enjin:14608167]
thedoper wrote:Basketball Reference has Rubio 289th on their defensive rating stat fyi. Don't really know which is better (or more accurate), but that puts him on par with Derrick Rose in terms of his D at the position. The top 20 has similar names and positions as DRPM accept with the addition of Whiteside as #1 (no wonder ESPN wanted their own stat).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_per_poss.html
I hope you realize that your link is listing all NBA players in alphabetic order. :roll: