Minnesota Sports Forum

Let's talk about what really matters. Prince, Miller, Allen - who cares? It doesn't change anything. Flip Saunders has to determine asap what the chances of Love resigning are. Have a meeting and make that determination. With that knowledge you can begin to make moves that make sense. If there is no chance of him staying, and I believe that to be the case, you start over and get as much as you can for him. If he really does want to stay, you make moves that continue to build around him. But Prince, Miller and Allen don't fall into that category.

If these trades come to fruition, it will demonstrate once again how clueless this organization is. All they would be trying to do is make the playoffs for one year at the expense of building a solid franchise. I would have to wonder if they are ever going to do this right.

Camden wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:Camden: Keep in mind that is not a "to date" total. If you make that trade 50 games in, you aren't 3 games better, you're closer to one. Also keep in mind it is only based on PER's, not how often those guys will play based on who is already in front of them, and Martin IS better than Allen, so he's not playing THAT much. So it becomes $2m of more salary next season with MIN getting the worst player of the 4 and a backup SG. Do we get their 1st?

Either way you look at it, the difference in W/L on the trade machine was my point. And no, I'm not saying we should or shouldn't make any deal based off what the machine says. I just thought it was interesting how much worse it said Memphis got after the deal.

Personally, I don't care about PER, but I do get the machine uses that primarily. Agreed Martin is better, but I do think Allen would get about 23-25 minutes a night here regardless. Might be better that way too to keep them both healthy. All hypothetical as always.

I think it's sad, but if I wanted to, I probably could make a case (a weak one and a stretch) that Barea's the worst player in the trade and not Prince. That goes to show how much I think about JJ this year. Regardless of if Prince is the worst player, we'd also get the best player in the trade in Allen.

Ugh. We should have just traded for Courtney Lee.

I can actually help your argument a little. Barea is a minus 61 for the season when he is on the floor which is about 19min/game for each game MIN has played. Prince is a +41 and Allen +33 and they play a combined 37min/game over all of MEM's games. Budinger is +10, but has only played enough to average 6min/game through all of the games MIN has played. To give you an idea of where Prince/Allen are at, Brewer is a +262 playing about 67% of MIN's minutes (32 a game). So he's not better than Brewer, who isn't really that great, and Allen isn't better than Martin. So they are expensive reserves. And you can't pay Prince that kind of money to move the needle a point a game.

I think this is all Duffy. I think Holinger called him and said "Get Prince out of my life or I'm not signing any more of your players and one of your employees sons might have an accident" (to learn more, go to the BDA website). So Duffy does what he always does: Calls Flip and says "Remember those pictures of you I got the night they closed that bar on E-Block". And Flip said "What do I have to do".

I think if this trade happened it would indicate one thing. Lionel Hollins will be the Wolves coach next season.

Camden wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:Camden: Keep in mind that is not a "to date" total. If you make that trade 50 games in, you aren't 3 games better, you're closer to one. Also keep in mind it is only based on PER's, not how often those guys will play based on who is already in front of them, and Martin IS better than Allen, so he's not playing THAT much. So it becomes $2m of more salary next season with MIN getting the worst player of the 4 and a backup SG. Do we get their 1st?

Either way you look at it, the difference in W/L on the trade machine was my point. And no, I'm not saying we should or shouldn't make any deal based off what the machine says. I just thought it was interesting how much worse it said Memphis got after the deal.

Personally, I don't care about PER, but I do get the machine uses that primarily. Agreed Martin is better, but I do think Allen would get about 23-25 minutes a night here regardless. Might be better that way too to keep them both healthy. All hypothetical as always.

I think it's sad, but if I wanted to, I probably could make a case (a weak one and a stretch) that Barea's the worst player in the trade and not Prince. That goes to show how much I think about JJ this year. Regardless of if Prince is the worst player, we'd also get the best player in the trade in Allen.

Ugh. We should have just traded for Courtney Lee.

As Jason mentioned, the trade machine uses PER to estimate games won/lost resulting from a trade. That means this trade is much more lopsided than the trade machine suggests, because it doesn't consider defense and we are trading two mediocre defenders for two superb ones. Since JJ and Prince only have one year left on their deals, and neither figures to be resigned, this deal is essentially Allen for Bud. Although Allen has one more year on his contract than Bud, I think most would agree that Allen at $5 million a year is a much better deal than Bud at $5 million a year. That's why I still think this is a bogus rumor, because I can't believe Memphis is dumb enough to make this trade.

Now that I have looked at JJ's game log this year, it occurs to me that Memphis may be overvaluing him. JJ has had two excellent games against Memphis this year...double figure scoring on good shooting, lots of assists and few turnovers. Those two unusual games combined with Memphis' poor depth at PG may lead them to think JJ is actually worth something. To us, it's a clear case of addition by subtraction.

Who's to say the deal isn't for Ed Davis with Prince or Allen being the pricey add-ons for fair value? It makes no sense for us to trade for just Allen and Prince. They are both older and can't shoot on a team that already can't shoot outside of two players (Martin and Love with Bud getting better). I would do a Davis/Prince for Bud/JJ/DC swap. We save 1.5 million. Davis is a young piece to build with around Pek and Love and Prince gives us some more perimeter D and a tradeable expiring contract next year. They get a backup PG which they don't have, a veteran backup to Randolph who can pick and pop and hustles on D and a shooter (Bud has been getting the touch back as he gets his legs back under him) which they have needed for years. This trade seems to be fair value for what both teams are looking to accomplish this year and the trade machine shows a -3 wins for both so it is fair for both in terms of total value.

I dont like this trade proposal at all. Flip better be smarter than this.

Where would Shabazz even fit in this scenario? --- Who gives a flying f---? It's up to Shabazz to make an impact, not up to the team to make room for him.

papalrep wrote:Where would Shabazz even fit in this scenario? --- Who gives a flying f---? It's up to Shabazz to make an impact, not up to the team to make room for him.

can't do that without opportunity.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Let's talk about what really matters. Prince, Miller, Allen - who cares? It doesn't change anything. Flip Saunders has to determine asap what the chances of Love resigning are. Have a meeting and make that determination. With that knowledge you can begin to make moves that make sense. If there is no chance of him staying, and I believe that to be the case, you start over and get as much as you can for him. If he really does want to stay, you make moves that continue to build around him. But Prince, Miller and Allen don't fall into that category.

If these trades come to fruition, it will demonstrate once again how clueless this organization is. All they would be trying to do is make the playoffs for one year at the expense of building a solid franchise. I would have to wonder if they are ever going to do this right.

Cool - I agree with you completely! My one caveat is that this potential trade as reported would not get the Wolves into the playoffs.

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

Camden wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:Camden: Keep in mind that is not a "to date" total. If you make that trade 50 games in, you aren't 3 games better, you're closer to one. Also keep in mind it is only based on PER's, not how often those guys will play based on who is already in front of them, and Martin IS better than Allen, so he's not playing THAT much. So it becomes $2m of more salary next season with MIN getting the worst player of the 4 and a backup SG. Do we get their 1st?

Either way you look at it, the difference in W/L on the trade machine was my point. And no, I'm not saying we should or shouldn't make any deal based off what the machine says. I just thought it was interesting how much worse it said Memphis got after the deal.

Personally, I don't care about PER, but I do get the machine uses that primarily. Agreed Martin is better, but I do think Allen would get about 23-25 minutes a night here regardless. Might be better that way too to keep them both healthy. All hypothetical as always.

I think it's sad, but if I wanted to, I probably could make a case (a weak one and a stretch) that Barea's the worst player in the trade and not Prince. That goes to show how much I think about JJ this year. Regardless of if Prince is the worst player, we'd also get the best player in the trade in Allen.

Ugh. We should have just traded for Courtney Lee.

I can actually help your argument a little. Barea is a minus 61 for the season when he is on the floor which is about 19min/game for each game MIN has played. Prince is a +41 and Allen +33 and they play a combined 37min/game over all of MEM's games. Budinger is +10, but has only played enough to average 6min/game through all of the games MIN has played. To give you an idea of where Prince/Allen are at, Brewer is a +262 playing about 67% of MIN's minutes (32 a game). So he's not better than Brewer, who isn't really that great, and Allen isn't better than Martin. So they are expensive reserves. And you can't pay Prince that kind of money to move the needle a point a game.

I think this is all Duffy. I think Holinger called him and said "Get Prince out of my life or I'm not signing any more of your players and one of your employees sons might have an accident" (to learn more, go to the BDA website). So Duffy does what he always does: Calls Flip and says "Remember those pictures of you I got the night they closed that bar on E-Block". And Flip said "What do I have to do".

Lol. Good post, Jason!