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Re: Who Goes To Miami?

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:22 am
by TheGrey08
SameOldNudityDrew wrote:I not only agree with Lip and Grey, I think the notion that the only form of success that matters is championships is part of what's wrong with the game these days. Yes, that's the ultimate goal, but just look at some of the effects of what has definitely become a culture of "all or nothing" in the NBA in recent years.

1. Stars forcing their way off teams to get to teams where they think they can win it all. Miami is the biggest example of this, and Love is probably most close to home, but there are plenty of other examples. To some degree, I get this. It's nice to win. But it's gotten so out of hand its like the only loyalty players have anymore is to their own chances of winning it all. And it's not entirely their fault, fans (and notice how many more fans there are of players, versus fans of TEAMS there are lately?) and sportswriters so often tell good players, "you deserve to be on a contender, you deserve to win championships." And these players believe it because the idea that nothing else matters but rings, that everything else is failure has become so pervasive recently. So this "all or nothing" attitude is part of what's driving a more individual, cynical, selfish, entitled approach to free agency among players (*ahem* Love), particularly star players, that is driving talent away from teams where they used to stay and remain loyal and have a loyal fan base.

2. Tanking. That's right. Why does all of this tanking happen? Because teams aren't just happy to try to be good year in and year out and get a little better every year. When the idea that championships are the only things that matter takes hold, the logic of "if you're not a contender, blow it up and go for the lottery for several years" takes hold, and look what that's done to the league. It's pathetic. What's happening right now in Philadelphia right now is just sad. I get that there's a natural ebb and flow to a team's development, and sometimes it makes sense to let a veteran go because they don't necessarily fit where you're at as a team, but it's gone way beyond that in recent years. Because we've so overemphasized the importance of championships, it's like we've pervasively created a race to the bottom, as teams gut their rosters and pray for the #1 pick where they can hopefully get the next LeBron. It's a disservice to fans and to the league. It's also why you're seeing the same teams at the top in recent years, the rest of them decided if they can't win it all, they'd rather blow it up.

3. Roster gutting to create tons of cap space for free agents. This is what the Lakers and the Heat have just done, where they basically stop signing any long-term contracts except for their stars (who are now even getting shorter deals with opt out clauses so they can chase rings elsewhere if it doesn't work out), and just sign a bunch of ring-chasers and other vets to 1 year deals that come off the books so they can go for another big free agent the next offseason. If championships are all that matters, who needs to be consistently good with the same set of veteran players? No, just do whatever it takes to keep your 1 or 2 or 3 stars happy, give the short stick to every other vet out there with a one year contract, try to get another star next year, and fill in the roster as needed each year. This is a bummer because even if the team wins multiple championships, like Miami winning two, it's not even necessarily the same team because they bring in different guys. Other than Chalmers and Haslem, who else was on that Heat team with the big three all 4 years? That kind of turnover undermines the loyalty between teams and players, between fans and the team that make basketball great. And if more and more teams start doing it, it will hurt those "good but not great" players and boost crazy roster turnover year to year. The only consistency on some of these teams would be their stars, and everybody else turns over. What kind of a world is that?

To me, championships are the ultimate goal, but what's wrong with just winning and having a good season and being a threat in the playoffs? What's wrong with being consistently good year in and year out? What's wrong with being loyal to your team, loyal to your players, loyal to your city? Are we so obsessed with championships that we're going to overlook the accomplishments of players like Stockton and Malone and Barkley? Is the ultimate measure of how good a player is really the number of rings he has? (Adam Morrison is better than Stockton and Malone and Barkley then). It's time to tone down the "everything other than a championship is failure" attitude and recognize how it's been hurting the league.

Amazing post Drew. Spot on. Quoting it b/c despite the length it needs quoting.

Re: Who Goes To Miami?

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:34 am
by alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]
Back to Miami. Here is the thing look at Miami's situation and tell me how is Bosh and Wade plus a couple young PGs better than 20 other teams in the league? Spolstra is the difference maker on that team besides Lebron IMO. Put Lebron on the 76ers and they would be a playoff team and ring chasers can sign there if they want. Put him on the Bucks same deal. Yes Wade and Bosh are better than the top guys on those teams, but how much better and I picked 2 of the worst teams in he league. My point is and we all know this that if Miami can't bring in at least 1 more player of substance they aren't much better BEFORE Lebron than like maybe 20+ teams in the league. Thats a real problem for Miami keeping Lebron IMO. Its going to be interesting in how both Miami and the Lakers situations play out this summer.


Because they have only lost 2 playoff series in 4 years. Pretty much cruised through the east. Yea the Spurs were clearly better, but they were clearly better then every team. Spurs and maybe OKC were the only two teams the Heat wouldn't of beat

Re: Who Goes To Miami?

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:58 pm
by A Friendly Flatulence [enjin:8907904]
alexftbl8181 wrote:Because they have only lost 2 playoff series in 4 years. Pretty much cruised through the east. Yea the Spurs were clearly better, but they were clearly better then every team. Spurs and maybe OKC were the only two teams the Heat wouldn't of beat


I disagree alex, the Mavs pushed the Spurs to seven games and they were the 8th seed. I think the Clippers, Thunder, and possibly the Rockets could have also beaten the Heat in the Finals. I don't think the Heat were the 2nd best team in the NBA this season, they just happened to play in the East.

Re: Who Goes To Miami?

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:47 pm
by Monster
A Friendly Flatulence wrote:
alexftbl8181 wrote:Because they have only lost 2 playoff series in 4 years. Pretty much cruised through the east. Yea the Spurs were clearly better, but they were clearly better then every team. Spurs and maybe OKC were the only two teams the Heat wouldn't of beat


I disagree alex, the Mavs pushed the Spurs to seven games and they were the 8th seed. I think the Clippers, Thunder, and possibly the Rockets could have also beaten the Heat in the Finals. I don't think the Heat were the 2nd best team in the NBA this season, they just happened to play in the East.


Yeah I think Alex missed my point that the Heat have to do better than what they put together and yeah sure they got to the finals but they got DEMOLISHED by the Spurs. They can't just sorta put together the team they have had the last couple years and try and keep Lebron. They need more than that. Other than Spolstra they don't have that much to offer. Ring chasers will sign where ever Lebron goes no doubt. I don't think Miami strikes out on players though and I think chances are Lebron is back in Miami.

Re: Who Goes To Miami?

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:50 am
by alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]
A Friendly Flatulence wrote:
alexftbl8181 wrote:Because they have only lost 2 playoff series in 4 years. Pretty much cruised through the east. Yea the Spurs were clearly better, but they were clearly better then every team. Spurs and maybe OKC were the only two teams the Heat wouldn't of beat


I disagree alex, the Mavs pushed the Spurs to seven games and they were the 8th seed. I think the Clippers, Thunder, and possibly the Rockets could have also beaten the Heat in the Finals. I don't think the Heat were the 2nd best team in the NBA this season, they just happened to play in the East.


even if that's true, that still means there isn't a team in the east that can beat them. So it's a free ride to the finals, and you only have to beat one team from the west then

Re: Who Goes To Miami?

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:48 am
by TheGrey08
alexftbl8181 wrote:
even if that's true, that still means there isn't a team in the east that can beat them. So it's a free ride to the finals, and you only have to beat one team from the west then

He can go to Cleveland with a very young & talented team that has a lot of ammo to go out and acquire another superstar like Love. That would put him in the best long term situation and he'd be back home.

Re: Who Goes To Miami?

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:03 pm
by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
Can someone explain to me why Cleveland would trade Wiggins for Love if they got Lebron? Wiggins can play the two or three while Lebron plays the 3 or 4. With Lebron being essentially another PG on the floor, Wiggins can play the two without the ball handling concerns being an issue with him playing off the ball most of the game. Lebron and Kyrie are the top two scoring options, but they'll need more than just Lebron to defend the perimeter. Adding Love gives them offense and rebounding, but it hurts them greatly defensively losing Wiggins and potentially Waiters. I would think letting Wiggins be the third guy on offense while focusing on defense will help him greatly to make an impact now and give him time to develop offensively. I would love to get Wiggins, I just don't see why they would need Love with Lebron and Kyrie already being #1 scorers. I'd also much rather part ways with Brewer than Martin if we are bringing on Wiggins. Wiggins is probably going to be better than Corey at everything at the 3 even in year one. Martin can score which is something we're going to need desperately if we are losing Love. I get it from a contract perspective, I just think Corey is not gonna help much especially without Love because that will essentially kill his cherry picking as well.

Re: Who Goes To Miami?

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:45 pm
by A Friendly Flatulence [enjin:8907904]
While I don't think its a sure thing that Cleveland would trade Wiggins for Love if they were to sign Lebron, its a very plausible & promising scenario. While Lebron & Kyrie would be instant contenders, if they were to trade for Love they would be odds on favorite to win it all. There is no guarantee that Wiggins pans out and Love is a sure thing while still being very young. Having Lebron would assuage their fears of having Love leave after just 1 season.

Now for the potential trade, I don't think that Cleveland would trade Waiters and Wiggins in the same trade, but that's just me. I think Cleveland fans think they could get Love with just a Waiters, Thompson, and Bennett package. I don't think that gets it done from a Wolves perspective. The whole scenario seems like the longest shot out of all the potential K-Love trades, to me at least

Re: Who Goes To Miami?

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:47 pm
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
1.) LeBron isn't going to Cleveland for just Kyrie Irving. Means they'd have to secure another star talent. Kevin Love is a perfect fit next to LeBron. Elite off-ball player. Best rebounder in the game. Stretch the floor with ease. Very versatile scorer.

2.) Rookies don't typically make huge contributions in year one, and I don't see Wiggins being any different. Kahns, you've argued this point when talking about the Wolves' rookies. Don't flip-flop. LeBron's in absolute "win-now" mode. He's not waiting for Wiggins to come along.

3.) A 25-year old proven star player holds more value than a 19-year old unproven athletic phenom 100 times out of 100. All 30 teams in the NBA know this. Reports were they already were willing to trade the pick for Love. I doubt that's changed. They just need a commitment.

Re: Who Goes To Miami?

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:10 am
by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
I don't think Wiggins is going to be a big offensive threat, but like Oladipo, he is coming into the league ready to defend now (Magic were 6 points worse with Dipo off the floor which is a significant drop especially from a rookie). Obviously that is a lot harder of a contribution to measure, but he's going to have an impact on the defensive side of the ball. My point on rookies is about people thinking guys are going to come in and carry teams from day 1 or take them to the next level. That's not going to happen and Wiggins would be the 4th option at best on Cleveland if they got Lebron (Lebron, Kyrie, Waiters), so he isn't going to have a big impact offensively. He will be a capable defender in year 1 which they could use more than another #1 scoring option who isn't a great defender. I think if you ask the top 30 teams if they would rather have Wiggins or Love, a lot of them would take Wiggins because he is 6 years younger, on a rookie deal and will defend from day 1 with a developing offensive game.

Lebron is making a deal for the next 4 years, not the next 1, so he isn't making his decision based on who Wiggins is going to be this year. If anything, Wiggins and Kyrie could be making Cleveland a more viable option because he knows he can carry them for a few years and then have them carry him as he gets older. Cleveland isn't trading for Love without a commitment and Love won't commit to Cleveland without Lebron, so there isn't going to be a Lebron joining Kyrie and Love, it will be Love joining Kyrie and Lebron which makes this scenario not such a sure thing. How is Cleveland going to be defensively with a PG and PF who are both bad defenders? Lebron won two titles in Miami with good, relentless defense. You just don't win titles without defense and I don't see how a Kyrie, Love, Lebron big 3 is good enough defensively to win anything. As much as that big 3 could score, they won't be able to defend anyone as a team and that will lead to 0 titles. They might make the finals because of how garbage the East is, but the top 4 teams in the West could beat that team year in and year out. Gilbert is done being in the lottery so who knows what a sane owner would be thinking in terms of building a team, whether you take Love or the number 1 pick in the deepest draft since '03. I don't think it'd be 30/30 in favor of Love. I would take Wiggins over Love because he could be a legit superstar before the end of his rookie deal just like Love was except he can be a two-way superstar unlike Love. That is why I would love this deal for us, but I don't see how Lebron goes to Cleveland with the hopes of getting Love when he knows your need to be able to play D to win.