Minnesota Sports Forum

John Collins to the Jazz for Gay and a 2nd

kekgeek wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:45 pm John Collins to the Jazz for Gay and a 2nd

That seems gross for both teams

Thought we had paint cloggers Feel like Kessler and Collins will even be worse and Atlanta got virtual nothing back.

kekgeek wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:45 pm John Collins to the Jazz for Gay and a 2nd

Wow, what a paltry return for the Hawks. As I’ve mentioned in a number of posts, I think there are some issues with Collins that we don’t know about. The Hawks have been shopping him for years now in spite of his obvious talent, youth, and impressive numbers. At the same time, they haven’t found any takers. And now they end up moving him for Gay and a 2nd. I recall that Collins was suspended 25 games a few years ago for a positive drug test - I think it was growth hormones. That doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, but there’s probably a lot more that we don’t know about regarding his character. Perhaps there were things known about him back in the draft that caused so many teams to pass on him in favor or less talented players. Wild speculation here, but Atlanta’s return is so bad there has to be more to it than meets the eye.

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:18 pm

kekgeek wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:45 pm John Collins to the Jazz for Gay and a 2nd

Wow, what a paltry return for the Hawks. As I’ve mentioned in a number of posts, I think there are some issues with Collins that we don’t know about. The Hawks have been shopping him for years now in spite of his obvious talent, youth, and impressive numbers. At the same time, they haven’t found any takers. And now they end up moving him for Gay and a 2nd. I recall that Collins was suspended 25 games a few years ago for a positive drug test - I think it was growth hormones. That doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, but there’s probably a lot more that we don’t know about regarding his character. Perhaps there were things known about him back in the draft that caused so many teams to pass on him in favor or less talented players. Wild speculation here, but Atlanta’s return is so bad there has to be more to it than meets the eye.

You 100% could be right and now with the new CBA Collins contract takes that 3rd expensive player role and I don’t know if he can be the 3rd guy on a consistent winner. Those type of contracts really harm teams now. Also dumping Collins might help them retain Murray if they want to go that route financially

kekgeek wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:36 pm

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:18 pm

kekgeek wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:45 pm John Collins to the Jazz for Gay and a 2nd

Wow, what a paltry return for the Hawks. As I’ve mentioned in a number of posts, I think there are some issues with Collins that we don’t know about. The Hawks have been shopping him for years now in spite of his obvious talent, youth, and impressive numbers. At the same time, they haven’t found any takers. And now they end up moving him for Gay and a 2nd. I recall that Collins was suspended 25 games a few years ago for a positive drug test - I think it was growth hormones. That doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, but there’s probably a lot more that we don’t know about regarding his character. Perhaps there were things known about him back in the draft that caused so many teams to pass on him in favor or less talented players. Wild speculation here, but Atlanta’s return is so bad there has to be more to it than meets the eye.

You 100% could be right and now with the new CBA Collins contract takes that 3rd expensive player role and I don’t know if he can be the 3rd guy on a consistent winner. Those type of contracts really harm teams now. Also dumping Collins might help them retain Murray if they want to go that route financially

Good point about the CBA. Do you think this provides more evidence that the Wolves will need to move on from KAT or Rudy next summer, assuming the Wolves extend Ant and Jaden?

Lip, I thought John Collins was your guy!

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 2:01 pm Lip, I thought John Collins was your guy!

He absolutely was my guy coming out of college. I was furious when Thibs passing on Collins to take the stiff from Creighton. And Collins numbers with Atlanta, especially early on, supported my view of him. But I’ve wondered about him the past couple years based on Atlanta’s consistent effort every year to move him. That plus the fact they couldn’t find any takers and the drug suspension makes me think there are some significant character issues.

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:41 pm

kekgeek wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:36 pm

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:18 pm

Wow, what a paltry return for the Hawks. As I’ve mentioned in a number of posts, I think there are some issues with Collins that we don’t know about. The Hawks have been shopping him for years now in spite of his obvious talent, youth, and impressive numbers. At the same time, they haven’t found any takers. And now they end up moving him for Gay and a 2nd. I recall that Collins was suspended 25 games a few years ago for a positive drug test - I think it was growth hormones. That doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, but there’s probably a lot more that we don’t know about regarding his character. Perhaps there were things known about him back in the draft that caused so many teams to pass on him in favor or less talented players. Wild speculation here, but Atlanta’s return is so bad there has to be more to it than meets the eye.

You 100% could be right and now with the new CBA Collins contract takes that 3rd expensive player role and I don’t know if he can be the 3rd guy on a consistent winner. Those type of contracts really harm teams now. Also dumping Collins might help them retain Murray if they want to go that route financially

Good point about the CBA. Do you think this provides more evidence that the Wolves will need to move on from KAT or Rudy next summer, assuming the Wolves extend Ant and Jaden?

100%.

With this new CBA teams pretty much get to have 2 max players and 1 highly paid non maxed 3rd. So it should be.
Max player 1: Ant (Not many players in the NBA I trade Ant straight up for with everything taken into account for)
Max player 2: Rudy or Kat (one needs to go, i will talk about more below)
Highly paid 3rd player: Mcdaniels (I think its hard not to make Mcdaniels the 3rd guy, I will say though he still needs to improve offensively to make the contract 100% worth it but we have seen enough that he is the 3rd guy).

Now with the Rudy and Kat thing. We have went back and forth all offseason on who has to to go. I want to say even though I have been in favor of trading Kat over rudy if they kept Kat over Rudy I would not be pissed. I think there is arguments to be made on either side. I actually like Kat, I think its sort of bullshit that the wolves get punished that Kat wants to stay or if Ant makes all nba. I think its bullshit. But me saying its bullshit does not change the situation the wolves are in and they are realistically going to have to choose Kat or Rudy.

The reasons I choose Rudy over Kat.
1) Even in a down year Rudy was one of the most impactful defensive players in the NBA. Once again the wolves were 2nd in the NBA in defense with Rudy on the floor and 28th with out him. I think it is sort of a joke he got 0 All defensive votes this year because people can't remove the trade from actual production when it comes to voting. Rudy did have a down year defensively but he was still great to borderline elite on that end he was just not generational like he was his last 4ish years on the Jazz.
2) I think the Wolves can get a better young player trading Kat then Rudy. I think that matters, I think the Wolves could get a player that could have a higher chance reaching Kat level for a fraction of the cost then the Wolves could get trading Rudy. I don't think the chances of the Wolves getting a player that could reach Rudy value on a cheaper contact is that high. (Obviously Connelly could draft a stud in the mid 20s for Gobert but the odds are lower then drafting in the top 10 in what Kat could bring you back)
3) I think the Wolves have a more natural replacement for Kat then Gobert. Naz has a very similar skill set as Kat and even though Kat is better in every way (maybe besides handle but its close) than Naz, Naz is a cheaper solid version of Kat.
4) Kat is such an interesting player, he destroys opposing 5s offensively but is he good enough defensivly at the 5 to win a championship with or at least win multiple rounds with. I don't have the answer to that. If you argue he can I won't argue to strongly back to it. I just think Kat has an unique great skill set but has a weakness that might hold the wolves back from reaching the best of the best. I do think the "Kat is a terrible defender" is a bad take though. Kat has turned into a league average defender that fouls to much. He had average success 2 years ago at the 5 and had great success at the 4 defending last year. I think Kat is under rated nationally when it comes to defense but he is still not a great defender there.
5) Trading Kat instead of Rudy allows the Wolves to have a reset date for the 26-27 season. Rudy and Naz would both come off the books, the wolves would have their pick (albeit a swap) and they will have cap space when Ant turns into his mid 20s. We would have an out and option to really re-look at the wolves going forward. If they pick Kat over Rudy that reset date does not come until the 29-30 season and Ant and Jaden contracts also theoretically expire that year so everything could hit the fan.

I want to say again, I don't think you are wrong wanting Kat over Rudy. I would just pick Rudy over Kat because of the value trading Kat gets over Rudy. I wish the Wolves could of seen this thing through with Kat and Rudy because I generally think the wolves could be really good this year. (Yes Im a dumb idiot homer) The new CBA makes it really hard to do so.

In the post draft podcast Dane Moore and Britt Robison were talking about possible landing spots for Naz and they brought up Utah as a possible spot. They were just coming up with teams there wasn’t any reporting but it is interesting that hours after Naz gets his extension this deal happens. Does it mean anything? Probably not but just something to consider.

I think Lip is right there is absolutely something up with Collins. Part of it is at this point he simply isn’t worth his salary. Last year his stats per 36 were under 16 points and 8 rebounds. That’s pretty underwhelming I think Naz has been better per 36 every season of his career. A PF that doesn’t rebound…yikes. Collins has missed some games too. Now if Collins bounces back and plays well the Jazz just got a nice player for basically nothing but taking on salary. Maybe he needs a change of scenery. Maybe he is going down and the Hawks were like let’s move on save money and prioritize other young players.

Did the Lux tax have something to do with it? Yeah absolutely I’m sure it did but the Hawks also have had something up with them a few different seasons now. Maybe Collins was part of the problem…or maybe not. He is another team’s problem and at this point the guy I wish the Wolves would have taken in that draft is Jarrett Allen.

Great post, Kek. I like the way you’ve boiled it down. Maybe TC will move KAT or Rudy this summer, but I just don’t see it. So it looks like next summer will be very interesting.