Minnesota Sports Forum

TheFuture wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:37 pm

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:27 pm

Monster wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 1:25 pm

That was an interesting read thanks for posting. I do agree that Miller has good touch. It’s definitely something I’ve noticed.

Very fun and informative read. Thanks for posting. Here’s what I’d consider the most telling passage when it comes to evaluating Miller’s one glaring weakness - namely 3-point or long 2-point shooting:

Leonard has good touch and bad energy transfer/rotational torque. I’m no Chip England, but this is a far brighter picture than what the numbers portray. Core stability seems like an issue that can be fixed, and he also has insane touch- not just good touch, but borderline ridiculous touch. Fixing a shot mechanically is tough, but having the underlying elite touch makes it much lower hanging fruit than for a true “non shooter.”

Miller needs to completely revamp his perimeter shooting mechanics and that wont’ be easy. I’d add that he also needs to develop better defensive instincts as he too often rotates or closes out too late. But as the article points out, there’s a lot to like in Miller’s tool box.

Yeah, a Wizard of Oz heel click doesn't just go away. That part is alarming.

I just watched some of his summer league highlights because I remember Dane Moore or someone commenting his corner 3’s looks better and didn’t have that heel click. Miller’s shooting is still a question but he has a few of his 3’s in summer league where his lower half ends up more what you would typically see. If he is working from what he did on some of those shots it’s not quite as big of a hill to climb for him to be a legit shooter especially since a couple of them are dribble pull up 3’s.

It would also be interesting to see the breakdown of how many corner 3’s he took in the g-league and the percentages he shot from different spots. From watching some games of his I’d guess he took at least 50% of his 3’s above the break and those are longer and poorer percentage shots than corner 3’s in general. It would be interesting to see catch and shoot numbers vs off the dribble too.

Reviving this thread in anticipation of summer league. You can read through it to get a feel of how these two were viewed one year ago.

I think it's appropriate to group these two together even though Miller is one year younger and was drafted the year after Minott. Miller went direct to playing professionally with the G-League Ignite before he got drafted and we know Minott didn't get much playing time at Memphis. So I put these two on even footing in terms of their maturity curve.

While this summer league isn't the end-all/be-all for these two, the amount of rope they have to show something to Wolves coaches and management is shrinking. Minott especially has been given a no-vote of confidence based on the drafting of Shannon Jr. and acquisitions of Ingles and Dozier. I'd say he's a long-shot to carve out a role with the Wolves. Will he prove the doubters wrong starting next Friday?

Thanks for re-upping Q! One thing I hadn’t seen posted here (maybe I missed it) was that Miller had been invited/participated in training camp for a very stacked Canadian Olympic team. He didn’t make that team, but I expect we may see that experience reflected in his summer league play. Let’s hope!

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 9:17 am Reviving this thread in anticipation of summer league. You can read through it to get a feel of how these two were viewed one year ago.

I think it's appropriate to group these two together even though Miller is one year younger and was drafted the year after Minott. Miller went direct to playing professionally with the G-League Ignite before he got drafted and we know Minott didn't get much playing time at Memphis. So I put these two on even footing in terms of their maturity curve.

While this summer league isn't the end-all/be-all for these two, the amount of rope they have to show something to Wolves coaches and management is shrinking. Minott especially has been given a no-vote of confidence based on the drafting of Shannon Jr. and acquisitions of Ingles and Dozier. I'd say he's a long-shot to carve out a role with the Wolves. Will he prove the doubters wrong starting next Friday?

Thanks for teeing this one up again, Q. I agree that both are in roughly the same place on the maturity curve. I suspect both are also victims of their own impatience and poor career judgment. Minott should have stayed in college at least another year until he could put a season together with significant minutes. Larry Brown said Minott could have been a lottery pick in a year or two. Larry knows what he’s talking about. Miller should have gone to college for at last a year or two. The G-League can work, but it doesn’t provide the structure of a college program and almost all 18/19 year olds need lots of structure. You don’t see a lot of structure, continuity or defense in the G-League. Once you’ve missed that opportunity for the structure and culture of a college program at age 18/19, I think it’s hard to make up for it in the NBA or G-League when your 20/21 years old. And getting he opportunity for minutes at the NBA level is really difficult, especially on a winning team like the Wolves.

Like you, I see this year’s Summer League as the beginning of the last shot for both these guys catching on as rotation players with the Wolves. It will begin with Summer League, continue in training camp, go on mainly in G-League competition, and potentially ramp up with the Wolves NBA team if there’s an injury or two as the season progresses. It might turn out that neither one will get significant NBA minutes next season, but they shine in the minutes they get and at the G-League, I see one or both having a really good shot at rotation minute the following season. I still see next summer as a 2nd apron reckoning. Something will have to give financially and that will mean opportunities for younger players as we take the next step transitioning to Wolves 2.0 featuring Ant, Jaden and Naz.

I personally think Minott is more ready to play a role than Miller. Miller has more diverse talent and more upside but I believe Minott might not suck on defense and is gonna run around and do shit. I still see him as more of a big forward better used at PF so I don't know if TSJ etc hurts him. Swapping out Anderson for Ingles helps because it's likely they are going to play Ingles fewer minutes and maybe even rest him some games so there could be some minutes for a young big energy guy like Minott or Miller.

It will be interesting to see what those guys show in SL. Maybe they show they are able to play more on the perimeter especially defensively. I think for Minott it will be less about him putting up big numbers but how he plays. If he has some more controlled chaos that could be a real positive.

I'll say it's not always easy to say whether a guy should have taken a certain path into pro sports. For some guys one path works and the other doesn't. Maybe Minott doesn't really impress and ends up undrafted and never even gets an NBA deal. Right now he is basically guaranteed to be in the league 3 years which is good for his financial future. Some NBA teams are good at developing young players. Some not so much but not every college program is good at developing young players either. I do think some guys that didn't play much in college just need to play legit post HS games whether it is college or NBA or G-league or overseas etc. I don't think we know if the Wolves are good at developing young players basically from start to finish or not. This season is kind of one where we find out.

Monster wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:20 pm I personally think Minott is more ready to play a role than Miller. Miller has more diverse talent and more upside but I believe Minott might not suck on defense and is gonna run around and do shit. I still see him as more of a big forward better used at PF so I don't know if TSJ etc hurts him. Swapping out Anderson for Ingles helps because it's likely they are going to play Ingles fewer minutes and maybe even rest him some games so there could be some minutes for a young big energy guy like Minott or Miller.

It will be interesting to see what those guys show in SL. Maybe they show they are able to play more on the perimeter especially defensively. I think for Minott it will be less about him putting up big numbers but how he plays. If he has some more controlled chaos that could be a real positive.

I'll say it's not always easy to say whether a guy should have taken a certain path into pro sports. For some guys one path works and the other doesn't. Maybe Minott doesn't really impress and ends up undrafted and never even gets an NBA deal. Right now he is basically guaranteed to be in the league 3 years which is good for his financial future. Some NBA teams are good at developing young players. Some not so much but not every college program is good at developing young players either. I do think some guys that didn't play much in college just need to play legit post HS games whether it is college or NBA or G-league or overseas etc. I don't think we know if the Wolves are good at developing young players basically from start to finish or not. This season is kind of one where we find out.

I think your assessment of Minott compared to Miller is spot on, Monster. I agree that Minott is more ready while Miller has more to his game and more overall upside. I can see Minott thriving in a Vando role. It will interesting to see both in Summer League.

I agree it’s not easy to say what the best path to the pros is for every player. But there aren’t many examples of NBA success among those who’ve gone the G-League route rather than college. I didn’t see any progression in Miller’s G-League play last season, which concerns me. Minott looks like he’s really improved his passing, ball-handling and decision-making. But his stats didn’t improve either. We’ll see how they do in Summer League, training camp and over the course of the season in both the G-League and NBA. I keep coming back to the fact that they’re both barely over 20 years old. And now they’ll have to compete with TSJ for playing time and a role.

Big off-season for both of these guys.

My big concerns
Minott: Might be the worst on ball defender in the NBA (that might be extreme) but he is so bad on ball. Finch was asked about Minott when the season was over and he mentioned he needs to improve his defense. It's so crazy because he should have the tools to be a good defender but man he cant keep in front of any one ever. He actually is ok off ball because he is springy but man he is so bad on ball. Also that and a lack of shot, its going to be hard for him to succeed. I will say he does try his ass off so just pure energy might be able to hide his massive liabilities for small stretches in the regular season but he does not have an NBA skill at the moment that he can lean on.

Miller: I actually like Miller a lot, can shoot, good passer, good rebounder when he wants to be. But my God he showed 0 effort in the G-League on the defense end and on the glass. Just pathetic effort on that end and he was benched in multiple games because of the lack of effort. So disappointing and it is never a good sign when he got called up to the big squad the defense got better in Iowa. Defensive IQ is not there at the moment either. He has the tools in my opinion to be an NBA player unlike Minott but does he want it is the question.

I also want to say I know there has been posts on Finch does not like to play the young guys. I think you need to watch one Iowa Wolves game and you will see why Miller, Minott and Moore last year got 0 real NBA run, the Iowa Wolves played pathetic basketball last year and they were so bad defensively (Moore Offensively), they didn't deserve run.

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:58 pm

Monster wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:20 pm I personally think Minott is more ready to play a role than Miller. Miller has more diverse talent and more upside but I believe Minott might not suck on defense and is gonna run around and do shit. I still see him as more of a big forward better used at PF so I don't know if TSJ etc hurts him. Swapping out Anderson for Ingles helps because it's likely they are going to play Ingles fewer minutes and maybe even rest him some games so there could be some minutes for a young big energy guy like Minott or Miller.

It will be interesting to see what those guys show in SL. Maybe they show they are able to play more on the perimeter especially defensively. I think for Minott it will be less about him putting up big numbers but how he plays. If he has some more controlled chaos that could be a real positive.

I'll say it's not always easy to say whether a guy should have taken a certain path into pro sports. For some guys one path works and the other doesn't. Maybe Minott doesn't really impress and ends up undrafted and never even gets an NBA deal. Right now he is basically guaranteed to be in the league 3 years which is good for his financial future. Some NBA teams are good at developing young players. Some not so much but not every college program is good at developing young players either. I do think some guys that didn't play much in college just need to play legit post HS games whether it is college or NBA or G-league or overseas etc. I don't think we know if the Wolves are good at developing young players basically from start to finish or not. This season is kind of one where we find out.

I think your assessment of Minott compared to Miller is spot on, Monster. I agree that Minott is more ready while Miller has more to his game and more overall upside. I can see Minott thriving in a Vando role. It will interesting to see both in Summer League.

I agree it’s not easy to say what the best path to the pros is for every player. But there aren’t many examples of NBA success among those who’ve gone the G-League route rather than college. I didn’t see any progression in Miller’s G-League play last season, which concerns me. Minott looks like he’s really improved his passing, ball-handling and decision-making. But his stats didn’t improve either. We’ll see how they do in Summer League, training camp and over the course of the season in both the G-League and NBA. I keep coming back to the fact that they’re both barely over 20 years old. And now they’ll have to compete with TSJ for playing time and a role.

Miller did make legit strides as a 3 point shooter.

kekgeek wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2024 12:55 am Big off-season for both of these guys.

My big concerns
Minott: Might be the worst on ball defender in the NBA (that might be extreme) but he is so bad on ball. Finch was asked about Minott when the season was over and he mentioned he needs to improve his defense. It's so crazy because he should have the tools to be a good defender but man he cant keep in front of any one ever. He actually is ok off ball because he is springy but man he is so bad on ball. Also that and a lack of shot, its going to be hard for him to succeed. I will say he does try his ass off so just pure energy might be able to hide his massive liabilities for small stretches in the regular season but he does not have an NBA skill at the moment that he can lean on.

Miller: I actually like Miller a lot, can shoot, good passer, good rebounder when he wants to be. But my God he showed 0 effort in the G-League on the defense end and on the glass. Just pathetic effort on that end and he was benched in multiple games because of the lack of effort. So disappointing and it is never a good sign when he got called up to the big squad the defense got better in Iowa. Defensive IQ is not there at the moment either. He has the tools in my opinion to be an NBA player unlike Minott but does he want it is the question.

I also want to say I know there has been posts on Finch does not like to play the young guys. I think you need to watch one Iowa Wolves game and you will see why Miller, Minott and Moore last year got 0 real NBA run, the Iowa Wolves played pathetic basketball last year and they were so bad defensively (Moore Offensively), they didn't deserve run.

Yeah, I want to be pleasantly surprised by M&M, but their G League play last year doesn't make me too hopeful. And of course Finchie saw both of them a lot in practice over the past year, and he didn't see a level of play that warranted real minutes. We'll have to see if they have both made big strides in SL, but right now I'm not including them in my rotation plans.

I just checked their G-League stats a minute ago. One thing that struck me was then minutes differential. Miller played 20 minutes per game last season in the G-League and 24 minutes the season before. In contrast, Josh Minott played only 8 minutes last season and 9 the season before. I’m not sure what to make of it. One thing for sure is that Miller has had a lot more G-League playing time than Minott to develop his game.

Minott didn’t play much his one season in college. He hasn’t played much in two years of G-league competition and he’s has had very little PT with the NBA Wolves. He needs to play or he won’t develop. It’s a black mark on the Wolves organization that they didn’t get Minott in at least 20 G-League games in each of the past two seasons.