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Re: The Pecking Order
Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2024 1:02 pm
by Lipoli390
FNG wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 11:46 am
60WinTim wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 11:24 am
Another solid game from Minott last night. And it has been painfully obvious Joe has a hard time staying in front of his man on defense. There is a lot of preseason action left, but I think Minott currently has the edge over Joe for a spot in the rotation.
And even with an off-shooting night, Rob continues to have a positive impact when he is on the floor. Given the statements from Conley and Finch in the offseason, there is every reason to believe Rob will also be part of the rotation to start the season.
So looking at the numbers, you need a 10 man rotation to get both NAW and Minott on the floor. And even then, Joe Ingles is riding the pine.
It's a good problem to have.
Yeah, terrific problem! And while I understand Q's point above about feeling really good about our depth in previous seasons, this season feels different to me. There are going to be some really good players who are going to have a difficult time getting minutes this year. A year ago, I don't think many of were too worried about guys like Moore Jr., Nix. Minott, Miller and Garza not getting minutes...I know I wasn't. This year we are.
As much of an Ingles bobo as I am, signs do point to Minott having moved ahead of him in the rotation. Ingles will struggle on defense, and only making 1 out of 4 threes last night doesn't help his case. And while I still think NAW will be the first backup to Conley (despite a poor game last night), Dillingham is progressing far faster than I would have thought and may surpass him
I agree. I see Minott ending up ahead of Ingles in the rotation. And I can see Rob and Donte combining to reduce NAW’s minutes.
Re: The Pecking Order
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:08 am
by Monster
Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 1:02 pm
FNG wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 11:46 am
60WinTim wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 11:24 am
Another solid game from Minott last night. And it has been painfully obvious Joe has a hard time staying in front of his man on defense. There is a lot of preseason action left, but I think Minott currently has the edge over Joe for a spot in the rotation.
And even with an off-shooting night, Rob continues to have a positive impact when he is on the floor. Given the statements from Conley and Finch in the offseason, there is every reason to believe Rob will also be part of the rotation to start the season.
So looking at the numbers, you need a 10 man rotation to get both NAW and Minott on the floor. And even then, Joe Ingles is riding the pine.
It's a good problem to have.
Yeah, terrific problem! And while I understand Q's point above about feeling really good about our depth in previous seasons, this season feels different to me. There are going to be some really good players who are going to have a difficult time getting minutes this year. A year ago, I don't think many of were too worried about guys like Moore Jr., Nix. Minott, Miller and Garza not getting minutes...I know I wasn't. This year we are.
As much of an Ingles bobo as I am, signs do point to Minott having moved ahead of him in the rotation. Ingles will struggle on defense, and only making 1 out of 4 threes last night doesn't help his case. And while I still think NAW will be the first backup to Conley (despite a poor game last night), Dillingham is progressing far faster than I would have thought and may surpass him
I agree. I see Minott ending up ahead of Ingles in the rotation. And I can see Rob and Donte combining to reduce NAW’s minutes.
I think Finch is gonna value Ingles passing shooting and smart play to a degree he is still gonna play on a semi regular basis. He had 3 assists in like 17 minutes last game. There will be times the team can use a vet for a variety of reasons and Ingles also has some edge to him and he is not a small human so that's nice to have.
Re: The Pecking Order
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2024 11:59 am
by Wolvesfan21
I agree Monster. Ingles simply knows how to play and while he's slow and old, he has a high IQ, Finch also doesn't like playing young guys who don't know how to play either. I see Minott too deep in the rotation to play regular minutes.
Re: The Pecking Order
Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2024 3:03 pm
by Monster
Wolvesfan21 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 13, 2024 11:59 am
I agree Monster. Ingles simply knows how to play and while he's slow and old, he has a high IQ, Finch also doesn't like playing young guys who don't know how to play either. I see Minott too deep in the rotation to play regular minutes.
The reality is that there haven't been maybe any young players during Finch's time here that have unexpectedly forced his hand in terms of him playing them especially over other vet options. Right now this is a team where a young guy is gonna have to impress to get minutes or someone in front of them falter or get injured. Having said that it's possible a young guy like Minott makes it clear he is simply too good or good enough to play minutes. Finch has praised him so that may mean Finch will prioritize giving him some minutes.
If what we have seen in SL, preseason and reports from Finch etc are true Minott is gonna get some opportunities to play and make a case for more minutes and more opportunities. I'm a fan of Minott but it's still off-season and preseason so we will need to see him do it in real NBA minutes. It does seem like there is something there and it's a switch from when some folks a few months ago were questioning why he was kept around when they could have just let him go. He turns 22 in a few days.
Re: The Pecking Order
Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:53 pm
by FNG
I believe this is the rotation/lineup thread, so I'll post this here. There's no disputing that Jaden has had a terrible first 7 games...let's hope his slight resurgence in the last game is indicative of where he is going, but we have to admit his overall numbers (raw, advanced, lineups) are extraordinarily bad. Finchie has to be thinking about options to replace him in the starting lineup. Minott has the size to fit in well, but I don't think he is ready for regular minutes. NAW is smaller than Jaden, but actually rebounds at a higher rate per 36...so he would make sense to start at SF.
But one thing we know about Jaden is that his head is the weakest part of his game. His teammates know it...did you see Conley cheering him up and encouraging him on the sidelines last game? I worry that a demotion from the starting lineup might have a very adverse impact on him. Still, there's no way that he should be averaging 27 MPG (even with his fouling issues) while the much more effective NAW and DiVo are averaging 22. Here's what I would do: Start Jaden, but sub him out after 5-6 minutes if he is not effective. Give him 4 5-6 minute stints, and let NAW have the balance of the minutes. Jaden gets to keep his starting position, but we get more productive minutes from NAW and fewer unproductive minutes from Jaden. Something like this:
Rudy34 Naz 14
Randle 34 Naz 14
Jaden 22 NAW 26
Ant 36 DiVo 12
Conley 32 DiVo 16
Obviously injuries or other circumstances (like wanting to get minutes for other guys) will change this some nights. But I would like to see this as the rotation blueprint until Jaden figures it out.
Re: The Pecking Order
Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2024 10:56 am
by 60WinTim
FNG wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:53 pm
I believe this is the rotation/lineup thread, so I'll post this here. There's no disputing that Jaden has had a terrible first 7 games...let's hope his slight resurgence in the last game is indicative of where he is going, but we have to admit his overall numbers (raw, advanced, lineups) are extraordinarily bad. Finchie has to be thinking about options to replace him in the starting lineup. Minott has the size to fit in well, but I don't think he is ready for regular minutes. NAW is smaller than Jaden, but actually rebounds at a higher rate per 36...so he would make sense to start at SF.
But one thing we know about Jaden is that his head is the weakest part of his game. His teammates know it...did you see Conley cheering him up and encouraging him on the sidelines last game? I worry that a demotion from the starting lineup might have a very adverse impact on him. Still, there's no way that he should be averaging 27 MPG (even with his fouling issues) while the much more effective NAW and DiVo are averaging 22. Here's what I would do: Start Jaden, but sub him out after 5-6 minutes if he is not effective. Give him 4 5-6 minute stints, and let NAW have the balance of the minutes. Jaden gets to keep his starting position, but we get more productive minutes from NAW and fewer unproductive minutes from Jaden. Something like this:
Rudy34 Naz 14
Randle 34 Naz 14
Jaden 22 NAW 26
Ant 36 DiVo 12
Conley 32 DiVo 16
Obviously injuries or other circumstances (like wanting to get minutes for other guys) will change this some nights. But I would like to see this as the rotation blueprint until Jaden figures it out.
And there we go again with an 8 man rotation...
But something I have not fully appreciated with our 8-man rotation complaints is that we really do have 8 players that could arguably be starters. And any player who thinks they could or should be a starter wants to see playing time that is on par with being a starter. And to accomplish that feat, there really is only room for 8 players.
So, injury, rest and garbage time is the only way we'll see minutes from our youngsters, with the exception of the token 5 minutes a 9th man MIGHT see...
Re: The Pecking Order
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 12:32 pm
by FNG
After 3 very bad losses, many of us here (and hopefully Finchie) think rotation and/or starting lineup changes need to be made. Here are 2 I would make right now:
1) DiVo thrived starting 63 games for an Eastern Conference runner up, and was also quite good the year before starting 36 games for the Warriors. And he was only an average player in his early years coming off the bench, and is really struggling this year as a reserve. Hmmm...if only there was something we could do. Well, it turns out that we have an aging player starting at PG who is also struggling this year. Conley wouldn't like being demoted to the bench, but he's the consummate team player. And he might even regain his mojo in a reserve role. I didn't think DiVo was a PG when we made the trade, but he has actually looked pretty good running the point this season. Put him back in the starting lineup, and let NAW continue getting 22-25 valuable minutes off the bench.
2) Many pundits have commented how much we miss SloMo, and I agree...his steady veteran presence was very valuable last year. But it turns out we have a steady veteran sitting on the bench. He won't provide the defense SloMo did, but he's a much better shooter. And he is a great facilitator (6.3 assists per 36 last year). He was a valuable contributor to Orlando's 47 wins last year, and averaged 17 minutes per night. He should be getting 17 of Randle's and Jaden's minutes, starting Friday night. Finchie needs to go to a 9-man rotation, and Ingles is much more ready to right this sinking ship than Minott and Rob right now.
Re: The Pecking Order
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:05 pm
by AbeVigodaLive
DDV isn’t a PG. Neither is NAW. There's nuance to the gig that neither guy has. The longer both are extended in that role… the less effective they become. One/two of the major plot points at the end of a potentially underwhelming season might be (1) Conley’s wall crashing, and (2) Dillingham being a wasted pick.
Re: The Pecking Order
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:53 pm
by FNG
AbeVigodaLive wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:05 pm
DDV isn’t a PG. Neither is NAW. There's nuance to the gig that neither guy has. The longer both are extended in that role… the less effective they become. One/two of the major plot points at the end of a potentially underwhelming season might be (1) Conley’s wall crashing, and (2) Dillingham being a wasted pick.
I agree on NAW, and I also admit that I always used to think of DiVo as a 2-3 and not a PG. But I see him as more of a combo guard since he came to the Wolves, and it's clear to me from Finchie's comments that he does too. Brunson and Donte sort of shared the ballhandling duties on that Villanova team (Donte only averaged one fewer assist per 40 minutes), but Brunson was clearly the PG when the two reunited with the Knicks. And there have been reports that DiVo embraced the trade to the Wolves because he thought it might give him more ball handling duties like he had in college. And I have been quite happy with him when he has had the ball in his hands so far...I think he has terrific passing instincts.
So if most of us think Conley has reached the end of his career as a starter, the question is who do we see replacing him. Rob is the only other true PG on our roster, and has the potential to be the PG of our future. But if we're in win-now mode, and I think we should be, he is clearly not the guy yet to be getting significant minutes at PG. I love NAW, but I definitely see him as a 2-3. So for me the answer is Donte. But Finchie may have other ideas...we'll have to see if he is ready to have Conley come off the bench, and who he sees starting in his place. It was NAW last night, but I don't think that will be his permanent solution.
Re: The Pecking Order
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2024 2:14 pm
by AbeVigodaLive
FNG wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:53 pm
AbeVigodaLive wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:05 pm
DDV isn’t a PG. Neither is NAW. There's nuance to the gig that neither guy has. The longer both are extended in that role… the less effective they become. One/two of the major plot points at the end of a potentially underwhelming season might be (1) Conley’s wall crashing, and (2) Dillingham being a wasted pick.
I agree on NAW, and I also admit that I always used to think of DiVo as a 2-3 and not a PG. But I see him as more of a combo guard since he came to the Wolves, and it's clear to me from Finchie's comments that he does too. Brunson and Donte sort of shared the ballhandling duties on that Villanova team (Donte only averaged one fewer assist per 40 minutes), but Brunson was clearly the PG when the two reunited with the Knicks. And there have been reports that DiVo embraced the trade to the Wolves because he thought it might give him more ball handling duties like he had in college. And I have been quite happy with him when he has had the ball in his hands so far...I think he has terrific passing instincts.
So if most of us think Conley has reached the end of his career as a starter, the question is who do we see replacing him. Rob is the only other true PG on our roster, and has the potential to be the PG of our future. But if we're in win-now mode, and I think we should be, he is clearly not the guy yet to be getting significant minutes at PG. I love NAW, but I definitely see him as a 2-3. So for me the answer is Donte. But Finchie may have other ideas...we'll have to see if he is ready to have Conley come off the bench, and who he sees starting in his place. It was NAW last night, but I don't think that will be his permanent solution.
I know DDV has compiled a nice list of drop passes this season.
But how well can he run a simple pick and roll? I don't know... but that's usually a telltale sign whether someone has the chops or not.