Julius Randle

[60WinTim]

A couple things.

1. I believe Randle based on hoops hype that Randle still has some incentives on the last year of his contract and one of them is playing 65 games and making the playoffs so that's a little more money he could he owed.

2. Utah might make the deal because Randle is simply a better player than Collins so they may thing that despite a little more money they will have a better chance of moving him in a future deal. They may also figure there is also a better chance of Randle opting out than Collins which I think is true especially if he is stuck in Utah. I don't see Randle as a guy that's gonna just be cool playing out his last year on a total rebuild.

3. While I have not watched games for weeks now I'm generally someone who values and kinda likes Randle. someone brought this up in another post in one of these threads (sorry I don't remember who) about Randle's numbers in the playoffs. That's a real question about him. One of those years I believe he was legit playing on a bum ankle but it's a legit concern. At this point he hasn't reached the point that D'Angelo Russell is where it feels like he simply is not a good player once it hits the playoffs. If Randle has another poor playoffs he will be close to that. How much do you pay a guy that you may not want to play starter minutes in the playoffs? Randle's salary is a big factor but how he can contribute in the playoffs is a pretty big factor to consider and I had that concern when the deal was made. It's not like Towns is some sort of awesome playoff guy himself but Randle has clearly been worse to this point.

4. Bradley Beal is only 31!?! Why did I think he was like 34? It almost feels like whoever has to take on the over 110 million he is owed after this season should get something for that.

I think you’ve make a pretty good case for why Utah might like that deal. Randle is a better player than Collins and should have more trade value next season on an expiring contract. But I still don’t see that as enough incentive for the Jazz to participate in that deal without getting something else of value.

Yep I agree.

I agree, too! But it wouldn't have to be a draft pick from the Wolves -- it would come from one of the other teams...

[Lipoli390]

We talk a lot about Randle (combined with Rudy) as a poor fit with Ant. But we shouldn’t overlook Randle’s poor fit with Jaden McDaniels. Here’s a telling excerpt from a recent Canishoopus article:

The “Barometer for Ball Movement”
It’s been one of the infamous phrases that Chris Finch has previously used to describe McDaniels’ role in the offense dating back to last season.

Its meaning is simple: when the ball is zipping around, it’s likely McDaniels’ production will follow suit. If the Wolves fall into their dreaded ways of iso ball and your turn - my turn offense, it’s likely to end with a disappointing night in tow. He’s not someone who gets plays called for him and often has to act as a counterbalance and supplementary piece to what the higher-usage players are trying to do.

We’ve all been frustrated by Jaden’s lack of consistent offensive production and overall offensive development. But part of the problem, I believe, is that the roster and resulting playing style is just as sub-optimal for Jaden as it is for Ant. We’d all like Jaden to be a 3-&-D guy and when his three is falling he’s a very good one. Perhaps it’s time to accept that Jaden might not fit the mold want him to fit. He’s really quick to the rim, both with and without the ball (two long strides) and a great finisher when there with his length and body control. A space-and-pace offense would likely bring out the best offensively in both Ant and Jaden. Just one more reason to move Randle and why moving him would be addition by subtraction.

[60WinTim]

Yeah, Lip. The check boxes against Randle just keep mounting. That player option for 30 mil is a big deal, too.

One trade you know I like is for John Collins, but I worry that we lose some bulk in the front court. But it occurred to me to check the current FA market for some bulk. Both Jahlil Okafor and Frank Kaminsky are playing in the G-League, trying to get back in the league. I wouldn't adding either one of those to the roster to provide some bulk, and insurance in case Rudy misses some time.

It just seems we are destined to move Randle by the deadline. We have 8 more games wandering in the Wilderness while we wait for the outcome.

[Phenom]

I might be on an island but I'd be interested in Vooch as a 3rd big to compliment Rudy and Naz. He has some similarities to KAT but at a fraction of the cost. He is more than willing to spot up and could be in a spread floor lineup. He could play with Rudy similar to how Karl did I think.

It could be Randle for Vooch and Jalen Smith but preferably Smith goes somewhere else. If the Wolves were married to what we had last year but couldn't afford it, this is having cake and eating it too.

[Lipoli390]

I might be on an island but I'd be interested in Vooch as a 3rd big to compliment Rudy and Naz. He has some similarities to KAT but at a fraction of the cost. He is more than willing to spot up and could be in a spread floor lineup. He could play with Rudy similar to how Karl did I think.

It could be Randle for Vooch and Jalen Smith but preferably Smith goes somewhere else. If the Wolves were married to what we had last year but couldn't afford it, this is having cake and eating it too.

If you’re on an island then I’m right there with you, Phenom. I like Vucevic and think he’d be a good fit here. But I wouldn’t do the deal if it also meant taken Jalen Smith. I actually like Jalen, but there’s really no room for him on our roster. Moreover, he and Vooch both have player options at combined salary of only around $1 million less than Randle’s salary next season. So I don’t see enough salary savings to justify the deal. I’d like Randle for Vooch and Duarte who has an expiring contract. That deal would save us around $10 million next season of Vooch were to opt in and $30 million if he didn’t. I’d actually want Vooch to opt in. I like him as a backup for Rudy and as someone who could also play alongside Rudy for stretches.

I just don’t see why Chicago would want to do any of those deals because I can’t see why they’d want Randle unless they’re convinced he would NOT opt in and that Vooch would.

[Monster]

I might be on an island but I'd be interested in Vooch as a 3rd big to compliment Rudy and Naz. He has some similarities to KAT but at a fraction of the cost. He is more than willing to spot up and could be in a spread floor lineup. He could play with Rudy similar to how Karl did I think.

It could be Randle for Vooch and Jalen Smith but preferably Smith goes somewhere else. If the Wolves were married to what we had last year but couldn't afford it, this is having cake and eating it too.

If you’re on an island then I’m right there with you, Phenom. I like Vucevic and think he’d be a good fit here. But I wouldn’t do the deal if it also meant taken Jalen Smith. I actually like Jalen, but there’s really no room for him on our roster. Moreover, he and Vooch both have player options at combined salary of only around $1 million less than Randle’s salary next season. So I don’t see enough salary savings to justify the deal. I’d like Randle for Vooch and Duarte who has an expiring contract. That deal would save us around $10 million next season of Vooch were to opt in and $30 million if he didn’t. I’d actually want Vooch to opt in. I like him as a backup for Rudy and as someone who could also play alongside Rudy for stretches.

I just don’t see why Chicago would want to do any of those deals because I can’t see why they’d want Randle unless they’re convinced he would NOT opt in and that Vooch would.

Isn't Jalen Smith sort of the type of guy we maybe should be looking at adding to the roster especially if we are looking at that young player time-line? Yeah he is making 9 million a year but his per 36 numbers are still pretty strong and he turns 25 in March. He MIGHT be the type of guy that could fit as a bench guy playing behind Rudy and Naz possibly long term.

Also I didn't realize Vuc was putting up those kind of numbers.

I don't see why the Bulls would do this plus Vuc might have some interest around the league. In addition Smith might be a guy they think could slide in and play more minutes at C if they move Vuc. For the Wolves if for some weird reason the Bulls were like yeah we will do Vuc and Smith for Randle I would be kinda thrilled plus I would be able to go tell ownership hey we also just saved you several million dollars this season! For next season yes the salalries are almost the same as Randle but they would take up 2 roster spots instead of one so that's one less. Spot to calculate filling which could be a savings of over 2 million dollars right?

[Phenom]

Smith would be a good value big but with Vooch there would be enough money on bigs, albeit much less than what we'd be looking at with Towns. I put Smith in the deal since it's the best contract for the trade to happen. I'd be looking to flip him or make it a 3 team deal.

[FNG]

We talk a lot about Randle (combined with Rudy) as a poor fit with Ant. But we shouldn’t overlook Randle’s poor fit with Jaden McDaniels. Here’s a telling excerpt from a recent Canishoopus article:

The “Barometer for Ball Movement”
It’s been one of the infamous phrases that Chris Finch has previously used to describe McDaniels’ role in the offense dating back to last season.

Its meaning is simple: when the ball is zipping around, it’s likely McDaniels’ production will follow suit. If the Wolves fall into their dreaded ways of iso ball and your turn - my turn offense, it’s likely to end with a disappointing night in tow. He’s not someone who gets plays called for him and often has to act as a counterbalance and supplementary piece to what the higher-usage players are trying to do.

We’ve all been frustrated by Jaden’s lack of consistent offensive production and overall offensive development. But part of the problem, I believe, is that the roster and resulting playing style is just as sub-optimal for Jaden as it is for Ant. We’d all like Jaden to be a 3-&-D guy and when his three is falling he’s a very good one. Perhaps it’s time to accept that Jaden might not fit the mold want him to fit. He’s really quick to the rim, both with and without the ball (two long strides) and a great finisher when there with his length and body control. A space-and-pace offense would likely bring out the best offensively in both Ant and Jaden. Just one more reason to move Randle and why moving him would be addition by subtraction.

While this analysis makes sense on its face, I don't believe Jaden's drop off is due to Randle or any of the other players around him...it's solely because of his failure to make his corner threes. He's only making 29% of them this season. His worst corner percentage prior to this season was 36% in 2021-2! I don't have stats on this, but it seems to me that a lot of his wide open corner looks (and misses) are created by Ju's drive and kicks...imagine how productive Jaden would be if he was just having an average season on those corner three's Ju is creating. Further evidence of my assertion that Ju helps Jaden rather than hurts him is this: only NAW has a better 2-man lineup net rating with Jaden than Ju!

There's also a narrative here that Ju is hurting Ant's production, but again, the numbers don't support that assertion. Similar to the Jaden data, Ant's 2-man net rating with Ju is only exceeded by Ant/NAW. Ant is more successful with Ju on the court than anyone other than NAW! I guess based on all this information, it's not surprising that far and away our best 3-man lineup at 13.8 is Ju/Ant/NAW...no other lineup with more than 300 minutes is even close!

I admit the eye test has never been kind to Ju. His body language is not positive, and his propensity to back into the lane to draw two players and then kick to the open man is not aesthetically pleasing basketball for those of us who prefer motion and ball movement. And his handle is often way too loose for my taste...his turnovers are too high, and his "near turnovers" annoy me. But the numbers after 44 games are pretty difficult to dispute if you believe net ratings have any validity...Ju works better with our young starters (Jaden and Ant) than anyone other than NAW. My stance remains the same: I'm not ready to write this season off. TC should trade Ju if he can find a deal that improves our chances of winning this season, but I'm pessimistic about such a deal being out there. Ju's drive and kick game along with his ability to get a bucket when he sees the right matchup is invaluable...his comfort in fitting into this offense is the main reason for our recent offensive resurgence. Imaging how potent this offense could be with a return of Donte and Jaden progressing back to his 3-point mean...this is a 120 PPG offense on the horizon. Obviously, I hope we don't see a Ju deal before the deadline.

[Q-is-here]

We talk a lot about Randle (combined with Rudy) as a poor fit with Ant. But we shouldn’t overlook Randle’s poor fit with Jaden McDaniels. Here’s a telling excerpt from a recent Canishoopus article:

The “Barometer for Ball Movement”
It’s been one of the infamous phrases that Chris Finch has previously used to describe McDaniels’ role in the offense dating back to last season.

Its meaning is simple: when the ball is zipping around, it’s likely McDaniels’ production will follow suit. If the Wolves fall into their dreaded ways of iso ball and your turn - my turn offense, it’s likely to end with a disappointing night in tow. He’s not someone who gets plays called for him and often has to act as a counterbalance and supplementary piece to what the higher-usage players are trying to do.

We’ve all been frustrated by Jaden’s lack of consistent offensive production and overall offensive development. But part of the problem, I believe, is that the roster and resulting playing style is just as sub-optimal for Jaden as it is for Ant. We’d all like Jaden to be a 3-&-D guy and when his three is falling he’s a very good one. Perhaps it’s time to accept that Jaden might not fit the mold want him to fit. He’s really quick to the rim, both with and without the ball (two long strides) and a great finisher when there with his length and body control. A space-and-pace offense would likely bring out the best offensively in both Ant and Jaden. Just one more reason to move Randle and why moving him would be addition by subtraction.

While this analysis makes sense on its face, I don't believe Jaden's drop off is due to Randle or any of the other players around him...it's solely because of his failure to make his corner threes. He's only making 29% of them this season. His worst corner percentage prior to this season was 36% in 2021-2! I don't have stats on this, but it seems to me that a lot of his wide open corner looks (and misses) are created by Ju's drive and kicks...imagine how productive Jaden would be if he was just having an average season on those corner three's Ju is creating. Further evidence of my assertion that Ju helps Jaden rather than hurts him is this: only NAW has a better 2-man lineup net rating with Jaden than Ju!

There's also a narrative here that Ju is hurting Ant's production, but again, the numbers don't support that assertion. Similar to the Jaden data, Ant's 2-man net rating with Ju is only exceeded by Ant/NAW. Ant is more successful with Ju on the court than anyone other than NAW! I guess based on all this information, it's not surprising that far and away our best 3-man lineup at 13.8 is Ju/Ant/NAW...no other lineup with more than 300 minutes is even close!

I admit the eye test has never been kind to Ju. His body language is not positive, and his propensity to back into the lane to draw two players and then kick to the open man is not aesthetically pleasing basketball for those of us who prefer motion and ball movement. And his handle is often way too loose for my taste...his turnovers are too high, and his "near turnovers" annoy me. But the numbers after 44 games are pretty difficult to dispute if you believe net ratings have any validity...Ju works better with our young starters (Jaden and Ant) than anyone other than NAW. My stance remains the same: I'm not ready to write this season off. TC should trade Ju if he can find a deal that improves our chances of winning this season, but I'm pessimistic about such a deal being out there. Ju's drive and kick game along with his ability to get a bucket when he sees the right matchup is invaluable...his comfort in fitting into this offense is the main reason for our recent offensive resurgence. Imaging how potent this offense could be with a return of Donte and Jaden progressing back to his 3-point mean...this is a 120 PPG offense on the horizon. Obviously, I hope we don't see a Ju deal before the deadline.

Perhaps the reason why Ant and Ju have one of the better offensive ratings together is because they both happen to be above average offensive players versus any sort of great synergy between the two of them.

Did you know that in 2021-22 that Ant's best pairing in terms of starters was DLO? They had a net rating of +7.1 when they played together. He and Randle are a +3 as a player pair with 1,234 minutes played together. Did you want DLO back on the team?

I think the issue with our offense is an accumulation of sub-optimal fits. Any one of the sub-optimal fits in isolation isn't a big deal since every one of our rotation players are good basketball players that have some sublime strengths.

But the sheer number of fit issues take their toll on the offense:

- Jaden can't hit corner 3's and punish defenses for collapsing in the lane.
- Randle can sometimes make 3's but defenses really don't respect it and won't guard him out there.
- Rudy can't catch anything but the perfect pass and has absolutely zero offensive go-to moves other than open dunks.
- Conley can't break down a defense anymore.
- Ant is late in recognizing open team mates and plays too much hero ball late in games.
- NAW and DDV are solid secondary ball handlers, but unreliable and turnover prone when asked to be primary PGs.

I could go on, but the point is that you probably can't eliminate 100% of the weaknesses and dis-synergies that come from a group of otherwise good players, but can we make progress in reducing them so there aren't so many!?

For example, Jaden's poor outside shooting wasn't as big of a deal when KAT played Center. Rudy's bad hands and lack of any post moves didn't prevent Utah from being the #1 offense with Bojan Bogdanovic starting at the 4 and 40% corner 3 shooters Joe Ingles and Royce O'Neale at the 3. Etc., etc.

[Monster]

We talk a lot about Randle (combined with Rudy) as a poor fit with Ant. But we shouldn’t overlook Randle’s poor fit with Jaden McDaniels. Here’s a telling excerpt from a recent Canishoopus article:

The “Barometer for Ball Movement”
It’s been one of the infamous phrases that Chris Finch has previously used to describe McDaniels’ role in the offense dating back to last season.

Its meaning is simple: when the ball is zipping around, it’s likely McDaniels’ production will follow suit. If the Wolves fall into their dreaded ways of iso ball and your turn - my turn offense, it’s likely to end with a disappointing night in tow. He’s not someone who gets plays called for him and often has to act as a counterbalance and supplementary piece to what the higher-usage players are trying to do.

We’ve all been frustrated by Jaden’s lack of consistent offensive production and overall offensive development. But part of the problem, I believe, is that the roster and resulting playing style is just as sub-optimal for Jaden as it is for Ant. We’d all like Jaden to be a 3-&-D guy and when his three is falling he’s a very good one. Perhaps it’s time to accept that Jaden might not fit the mold want him to fit. He’s really quick to the rim, both with and without the ball (two long strides) and a great finisher when there with his length and body control. A space-and-pace offense would likely bring out the best offensively in both Ant and Jaden. Just one more reason to move Randle and why moving him would be addition by subtraction.

While this analysis makes sense on its face, I don't believe Jaden's drop off is due to Randle or any of the other players around him...it's solely because of his failure to make his corner threes. He's only making 29% of them this season. His worst corner percentage prior to this season was 36% in 2021-2! I don't have stats on this, but it seems to me that a lot of his wide open corner looks (and misses) are created by Ju's drive and kicks...imagine how productive Jaden would be if he was just having an average season on those corner three's Ju is creating. Further evidence of my assertion that Ju helps Jaden rather than hurts him is this: only NAW has a better 2-man lineup net rating with Jaden than Ju!

There's also a narrative here that Ju is hurting Ant's production, but again, the numbers don't support that assertion. Similar to the Jaden data, Ant's 2-man net rating with Ju is only exceeded by Ant/NAW. Ant is more successful with Ju on the court than anyone other than NAW! I guess based on all this information, it's not surprising that far and away our best 3-man lineup at 13.8 is Ju/Ant/NAW...no other lineup with more than 300 minutes is even close!

I admit the eye test has never been kind to Ju. His body language is not positive, and his propensity to back into the lane to draw two players and then kick to the open man is not aesthetically pleasing basketball for those of us who prefer motion and ball movement. And his handle is often way too loose for my taste...his turnovers are too high, and his "near turnovers" annoy me. But the numbers after 44 games are pretty difficult to dispute if you believe net ratings have any validity...Ju works better with our young starters (Jaden and Ant) than anyone other than NAW. My stance remains the same: I'm not ready to write this season off. TC should trade Ju if he can find a deal that improves our chances of winning this season, but I'm pessimistic about such a deal being out there. Ju's drive and kick game along with his ability to get a bucket when he sees the right matchup is invaluable...his comfort in fitting into this offense is the main reason for our recent offensive resurgence. Imaging how potent this offense could be with a return of Donte and Jaden progressing back to his 3-point mean...this is a 120 PPG offense on the horizon. Obviously, I hope we don't see a Ju deal before the deadline.

Perhaps the reason why Ant and Ju have one of the better offensive ratings together is because they both happen to be above average offensive players versus any sort of great synergy between the two of them.

Did you know that in 2021-22 that Ant's best pairing in terms of starters was DLO? They had a net rating of +7.1 when they played together. He and Randle are a +3 as a player pair with 1,234 minutes played together. Did you want DLO back on the team?

I think the issue with our offense is an accumulation of sub-optimal fits. Any one of the sub-optimal fits in isolation isn't a big deal since every one of our rotation players are good basketball players that have some sublime strengths.

But the sheer number of fit issues take their toll on the offense:

- Jaden can't hit corner 3's and punish defenses for collapsing in the lane.
- Randle can sometimes make 3's but defenses really don't respect it and won't guard him out there.
- Rudy can't catch anything but the perfect pass and has absolutely zero offensive go-to moves other than open dunks.
- Conley can't break down a defense anymore.
- Ant is late in recognizing open team mates and plays too much hero ball late in games.
- NAW and DDV are solid secondary ball handlers, but unreliable and turnover prone when asked to be primary PGs.

I could go on, but the point is that you probably can't eliminate 100% of the weaknesses and dis-synergies that come from a group of otherwise good players, but can we make progress in reducing them so there aren't so many!?

For example, Jaden's poor outside shooting wasn't as big of a deal when KAT played Center. Rudy's bad hands and lack of any post moves didn't prevent Utah from being the #1 offense with Bojan Bogdanovic starting at the 4 and 40% corner 3 shooters Joe Ingles and Royce O'Neale at the 3. Etc., etc.

I've been a big McDaniels fan from the beginning but let's be honest here at this point the guy on offense more of a fringe starter like NAW who is a better 3 point shooter and can handle the ball. I still think there is potential for him to develop his offense more but I don't see any significant signs of that happening and his 3point shooting is underwhelming. He is shooting an easily career worst 29% from the corners so there is hope this season he will improve but he needs to be more consistent in that area.

I'd be curious to know what Knicks players Randle held back from being good offensively.

Edit: This is a good discussion.

I'll add that while Russell and Edwards and the rest of the roster weren't perfect on offense the reason why he was moved had more to do with his inconsistency on defense than anything else. His last season here Russell did what he was asked on offense and improved his value to the point where it was a really good move when dealing him. I see various parallels with Russell and Randle however a big difference between the 2 situations is the Wolves current group brought Randle in on purpose and it's only been a few months. What if Finch can get Randle to play the correct role on offense like he did with Russell?