Minnesota Sports Forum

Q12543 wrote:

slimcalhoun27 wrote:Here is my concern with Collin, if he didn't have the huge game in the Final or versus South Carolina in the NCAA Tournament....would anyone be speaking of him right now? Also, his conference competition is weak. Even in his Draftexpress write up they mention his lack of competition and lack of game tape. For me, the jury is out if he can be an NBA talent who can be more then a glue or fill in the blanks player which Dieng does well for us. We need a player who can be NBA on one level (offense, defense, 3shooting, etc) I don't see a player better then Markkanen in Collins , nor Isaac. If we want a defense and hustle guy then let's trade back and get my favorite baby Huey, Ike Anigbogu for defense only.

Fair concerns on Collins in terms of his minutes and conference. I'm convinced he would have been the starting Center on most other elite D-1 teams if he wasn't playing behind 5th year senior Karnowski. Gonzaga was often better with Collins in the game though because of his mobility. His big issue was foul problems because he's an aggressive S.O.B.

I understand the premise, but he didn't start and he didn't have that many standout games.

I find it odd that many posters here who are against adding a rookie would rather choose potential over substance at our pick.

The way I see it is we have 3 big needs: 3pt shooting, rim protection, and lockdown defense. If we sit at #6 or #7 there are likely no longer any players with an elite skill set in one of those areas other than Markannen. When did we decide that Markannen is what he is while being comfortable extrapolating the potential of an Isaac or Collins?

I'm not super high on Markannen, but he is the only player that doesn't seem like a reach at our assumed pick. If we want potential in one of the other areas then we ought to trade down and hedge our bet by gaining another asset.

Again, We should not be looking at a rookie to fix our defensive woes by hopefully panning out in 2+ years. That defensive change absolutely has to come from within, mainly with KAT. Right now we need to add a quantifiable skill set to our rotation. Markannen is the only prospect who can provide us with that at that point in the draft. However, going by Thibs style, I see a slim chance of Markannen being the pick.

TheFuture wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

slimcalhoun27 wrote:Here is my concern with Collin, if he didn't have the huge game in the Final or versus South Carolina in the NCAA Tournament....would anyone be speaking of him right now? Also, his conference competition is weak. Even in his Draftexpress write up they mention his lack of competition and lack of game tape. For me, the jury is out if he can be an NBA talent who can be more then a glue or fill in the blanks player which Dieng does well for us. We need a player who can be NBA on one level (offense, defense, 3shooting, etc) I don't see a player better then Markkanen in Collins , nor Isaac. If we want a defense and hustle guy then let's trade back and get my favorite baby Huey, Ike Anigbogu for defense only.

Fair concerns on Collins in terms of his minutes and conference. I'm convinced he would have been the starting Center on most other elite D-1 teams if he wasn't playing behind 5th year senior Karnowski. Gonzaga was often better with Collins in the game though because of his mobility. His big issue was foul problems because he's an aggressive S.O.B.

I understand the premise, but he didn't start and he didn't have that many standout games.

I find it odd that many posters here who are against adding a rookie would rather choose potential over substance at our pick.

The way I see it is we have 3 big needs: 3pt shooting, rim protection, and lockdown defense. If we sit at #6 or #7 there are likely no longer any players with an elite skill set in one of those areas other than Markannen. When did we decide that Markannen is what he is while being comfortable extrapolating the potential of an Isaac or Collins?

I'm not super high on Markannen, but he is the only player that doesn't seem like a reach at our assumed pick. If we want potential in one of the other areas then we ought to trade down and hedge our bet by gaining another asset.

Again, We should not be looking at a rookie to fix our defensive woes by hopefully panning out in 2+ years. That defensive change absolutely has to come from within, mainly with KAT. Right now we need to add a quantifiable skill set to our rotation. Markannen is the only prospect who can provide us with that at that point in the draft. However, going by Thibs style, I see a slim chance of Markannen being the pick.

Great post. I think in general we have to assume there is a lot of growth potential in one and done prospects. It wasn't that long ago that Towns was a prospect who could impact defensively right away and whose offense was going to be a project. The biggest area I was impressed in watching Markannen was the way he moves. His stroke is great, but I was expecting an awkward skinny kid, he is the opposite of that. He's wide and moves great, the shooting speaks for itself.

One of the reasons I like Collins as a potential pick is because he wouldn't have to be thrust into the rotation right away. He could play behind both KAT, Dieng, and potentially even Aldrich. He could get some D-league reps. Basically, he would be on the fringes of the rotation in his first season and not counted upon to play many minutes. I'd love nothing more than to see zero rookies in our main 9-man rotation for the first time in years.

As for Markannen, unlike Collins and Isaac, he actually proved that he's incapable of doing much other than shoot at the D-1 level. At least the others statistically showed a much better all-around game. Now that doesn't mean it will translate, but I can almost guarantee that crappy rebounders, passers, shot blockers, and ball thiefs in college will be crappy rebounders, passers, shot blockers, and ball thiefs in the NBA.

Q12543 wrote:One of the reasons I like Collins as a potential pick is because he wouldn't have to be thrust into the rotation right away. He could play behind both KAT, Dieng, and potentially even Aldrich. He could get some D-league reps. Basically, he would be on the fringes of the rotation in his first season and not counted upon to play many minutes. I'd love nothing more than to see zero rookies in our main 9-man rotation for the first time in years.

As for Markannen, unlike Collins and Isaac, he actually proved that he's incapable of doing much other than shoot at the D-1 level. At least the others statistically showed a much better all-around game. Now that doesn't mean it will translate, but I can almost guarantee that crappy rebounders, passers, shot blockers, and ball thiefs in college will be crappy rebounders, passers, shot blockers, and ball thiefs in the NBA.

I agree with much of what you're saying (Isaac mainly), but I understand the draw with Markannen as well. More so playing devil's advocate.

As for my personal view, I actually do not want to invest a high pick in a PF/C as many here do.

After watching these playoffs, and top teams, I realize we seriously lack wing talent (2,3, and the modern 4) for any of these matchups. FA is the area I would target to add either a defensive specialist or 3pt specialist as a big (I'm not greedy enough to expect we get both in one player, but I'd love it of course). I'm actually very comfortable with the regular season/postseason big man matchups/options with Towns, Aldrich, Belly, Dieng, and a specialist PF FA.

Where I'm not comfortable is assuming someone like Collins is going to be able to meet the investment value when we hopefully are in in the playoffs over the next 3 years. I don't see Dieng and Towns side by side for more than spot minutes in the future, and Collins is likely a 5 then as well with no guarantees, nor much playing time, to develop into a player better than Dieng, If we were to draft a big then At least Markannen provides a definite matchup problem and serious spacing on one end (hello KAT and Wiggins free lane), even if he may be open to a matchup problem on the other (this is where KAT and the huge athletic/defensive potential in Wiggins, Dunn, and Lavine need to be the answer).

Playoffs are an offensive chess game, and I'd prefer to have the superior offensive weapons and let the opposing D try to stop me, and then take my chances that they miss their shot regardless of how great my individual defensive players are. This is where Thibs is suppose to carry us; team defense. He did it well in Chicago, but never had the offensive firepower to get over the hump.

If we are sitting at 6 or 7 and assume Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum, and Isaac are gone, then I want DSJ for a guard rotation of Rubio, Lavine, DSJ, Dunn, Wiggins (Tyus gets moved). And Wiggins, Shabazz, Belly, Dieng and 2 FAs at the 3/4 spots.
Other options: Markannen, Donovan Mitchell, Semi Ojeleye, Sindarious Thornwell, Terrance Ferguson, Swanigan, Rabb, Anigbogu, Bam, Hart, Justin Jackson, Hartenstein, Kennard, Hamidou Diallo, Jarrett Allen, John Collins, Harry Giles,

Looking at the options above, I'm more inclined to take this opportunity to trade back and get two chances at players. Spend all the money on 2-3 FA players to fill Thibs short rotation this offseason, and start grooming talent with two picks in a potentially deep draft.

bleedspeed177 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Last year there were fans of Thomas Bryant on this board. He is an intruiging guy. It's just one clip of a workout but he looks pretty good stroking the 3.

https://twitter.com/draftexpress/status/862131130551717888

I remember being a fan of him. Did he do much to improve this year?

Just going off one game against the gophers he got worked by reggie lynch. Like dominated. Not interested

TheFuture wrote:

Q12543 wrote:One of the reasons I like Collins as a potential pick is because he wouldn't have to be thrust into the rotation right away. He could play behind both KAT, Dieng, and potentially even Aldrich. He could get some D-league reps. Basically, he would be on the fringes of the rotation in his first season and not counted upon to play many minutes. I'd love nothing more than to see zero rookies in our main 9-man rotation for the first time in years.

As for Markannen, unlike Collins and Isaac, he actually proved that he's incapable of doing much other than shoot at the D-1 level. At least the others statistically showed a much better all-around game. Now that doesn't mean it will translate, but I can almost guarantee that crappy rebounders, passers, shot blockers, and ball thiefs in college will be crappy rebounders, passers, shot blockers, and ball thiefs in the NBA.

I agree with much of what you're saying (Isaac mainly), but I understand the draw with Markannen as well. More so playing devil's advocate.

As for my personal view, I actually do not want to invest a high pick in a PF/C as many here do.

After watching these playoffs, and top teams, I realize we seriously lack wing talent (2,3, and the modern 4) for any of these matchups. FA is the area I would target to add either a defensive specialist or 3pt specialist as a big (I'm not greedy enough to expect we get both in one player, but I'd love it of course). I'm actually very comfortable with the regular season/postseason big man matchups/options with Towns, Aldrich, Belly, Dieng, and a specialist PF FA.

Where I'm not comfortable is assuming someone like Collins is going to be able to meet the investment value when we hopefully are in in the playoffs over the next 3 years. I don't see Dieng and Towns side by side for more than spot minutes in the future, and Collins is likely a 5 then as well with no guarantees, nor much playing time, to develop into a player better than Dieng, If we were to draft a big then At least Markannen provides a definite matchup problem and serious spacing on one end (hello KAT and Wiggins free lane), even if he may be open to a matchup problem on the other (this is where KAT and the huge athletic/defensive potential in Wiggins, Dunn, and Lavine need to be the answer).

Playoffs are an offensive chess game, and I'd prefer to have the superior offensive weapons and let the opposing D try to stop me, and then take my chances that they miss their shot regardless of how great my individual defensive players are. This is where Thibs is suppose to carry us; team defense. He did it well in Chicago, but never had the offensive firepower to get over the hump.

If we are sitting at 6 or 7 and assume Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum, and Isaac are gone, then I want DSJ for a guard rotation of Rubio, Lavine, DSJ, Dunn, Wiggins (Tyus gets moved). And Wiggins, Shabazz, Belly, Dieng and 2 FAs at the 3/4 spots.
Other options: Markannen, Donovan Mitchell, Semi Ojeleye, Sindarious Thornwell, Terrance Ferguson, Swanigan, Rabb, Anigbogu, Bam, Hart, Justin Jackson, Hartenstein, Kennard, Hamidou Diallo, Jarrett Allen, John Collins, Harry Giles,

Looking at the options above, I'm more inclined to take this opportunity to trade back and get two chances at players. Spend all the money on 2-3 FA players to fill Thibs short rotation this offseason, and start grooming talent with two picks in a potentially deep draft.

I think you are underrating Collins. I thought he was easily the most talented player in the final 4. It's now a near certainty he's going to go in the top 10 of a very deep draft. When I rate his abilities, I don't even consider his raw numbers. He played a supporting role for most of the year. In just about any other situation he would have been the man and racked up more stats. But what I do see is athleticism, basketball IQ, timing, and most importantly aggressiveness. I don't see how he can't be a very good starter in the NBA. Sure, it might not be next year but I don't believe he's a guy you would have to wait on for 3 or 4 years. If they could bring him in and use him similarly to how Gonzaga used him this year he could help us right away and also develop at the proper pace. My main concern with him is that somebody smart takes him before we get the chance.

TheFuture wrote:

Q12543 wrote:One of the reasons I like Collins as a potential pick is because he wouldn't have to be thrust into the rotation right away. He could play behind both KAT, Dieng, and potentially even Aldrich. He could get some D-league reps. Basically, he would be on the fringes of the rotation in his first season and not counted upon to play many minutes. I'd love nothing more than to see zero rookies in our main 9-man rotation for the first time in years.

As for Markannen, unlike Collins and Isaac, he actually proved that he's incapable of doing much other than shoot at the D-1 level. At least the others statistically showed a much better all-around game. Now that doesn't mean it will translate, but I can almost guarantee that crappy rebounders, passers, shot blockers, and ball thiefs in college will be crappy rebounders, passers, shot blockers, and ball thiefs in the NBA.

I agree with much of what you're saying (Isaac mainly), but I understand the draw with Markannen as well. More so playing devil's advocate.

As for my personal view, I actually do not want to invest a high pick in a PF/C as many here do.

After watching these playoffs, and top teams, I realize we seriously lack wing talent (2,3, and the modern 4) for any of these matchups. FA is the area I would target to add either a defensive specialist or 3pt specialist as a big (I'm not greedy enough to expect we get both in one player, but I'd love it of course). I'm actually very comfortable with the regular season/postseason big man matchups/options with Towns, Aldrich, Belly, Dieng, and a specialist PF FA.

Where I'm not comfortable is assuming someone like Collins is going to be able to meet the investment value when we hopefully are in in the playoffs over the next 3 years. I don't see Dieng and Towns side by side for more than spot minutes in the future, and Collins is likely a 5 then as well with no guarantees, nor much playing time, to develop into a player better than Dieng, If we were to draft a big then At least Markannen provides a definite matchup problem and serious spacing on one end (hello KAT and Wiggins free lane), even if he may be open to a matchup problem on the other (this is where KAT and the huge athletic/defensive potential in Wiggins, Dunn, and Lavine need to be the answer).

Playoffs are an offensive chess game, and I'd prefer to have the superior offensive weapons and let the opposing D try to stop me, and then take my chances that they miss their shot regardless of how great my individual defensive players are. This is where Thibs is suppose to carry us; team defense. He did it well in Chicago, but never had the offensive firepower to get over the hump.

If we are sitting at 6 or 7 and assume Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum, and Isaac are gone, then I want DSJ for a guard rotation of Rubio, Lavine, DSJ, Dunn, Wiggins (Tyus gets moved). And Wiggins, Shabazz, Belly, Dieng and 2 FAs at the 3/4 spots.
Other options: Markannen, Donovan Mitchell, Semi Ojeleye, Sindarious Thornwell, Terrance Ferguson, Swanigan, Rabb, Anigbogu, Bam, Hart, Justin Jackson, Hartenstein, Kennard, Hamidou Diallo, Jarrett Allen, John Collins, Harry Giles,

Looking at the options above, I'm more inclined to take this opportunity to trade back and get two chances at players. Spend all the money on 2-3 FA players to fill Thibs short rotation this offseason, and start grooming talent with two picks in a potentially deep draft.

Generally agree...I'd prefer to trade the player we take for either two prospects lower in the draft that can be groomed in the D-league/end of the bench or trade it for a veteran. But....the right deal may not be available.

I also agree that today's NBA demands multiple guys that can switch, defend on the perimeter, shoot, etc. While Collins is a big man, one of his strengths is his athleticism and mobility. I'll take big and quick over medium and quick every single day. It's why Draymond is such a phenomenal talent....he can battle in the paint with bigs and then go out and check a wing on the perimeter. Tristian Thompson is another big that can do both (albeit not as well as Green). I actually think KAT has this potential as well, if he ever figures out how to take the right angles and position himself better.

While I by no means want to compare Collins (or KAT for that matter) to Green, what if his foot speed and agility is the real deal? Now we can play small ball, but with a big lineup! To me that is the best of both worlds.

TheFuture wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

slimcalhoun27 wrote:Here is my concern with Collin, if he didn't have the huge game in the Final or versus South Carolina in the NCAA Tournament....would anyone be speaking of him right now? Also, his conference competition is weak. Even in his Draftexpress write up they mention his lack of competition and lack of game tape. For me, the jury is out if he can be an NBA talent who can be more then a glue or fill in the blanks player which Dieng does well for us. We need a player who can be NBA on one level (offense, defense, 3shooting, etc) I don't see a player better then Markkanen in Collins , nor Isaac. If we want a defense and hustle guy then let's trade back and get my favorite baby Huey, Ike Anigbogu for defense only.

Fair concerns on Collins in terms of his minutes and conference. I'm convinced he would have been the starting Center on most other elite D-1 teams if he wasn't playing behind 5th year senior Karnowski. Gonzaga was often better with Collins in the game though because of his mobility. His big issue was foul problems because he's an aggressive S.O.B.

I understand the premise, but he didn't start and he didn't have that many standout games.

I find it odd that many posters here who are against adding a rookie would rather choose potential over substance at our pick.

The way I see it is we have 3 big needs: 3pt shooting, rim protection, and lockdown defense. If we sit at #6 or #7 there are likely no longer any players with an elite skill set in one of those areas other than Markannen. When did we decide that Markannen is what he is while being comfortable extrapolating the potential of an Isaac or Collins?

I'm not super high on Markannen, but he is the only player that doesn't seem like a reach at our assumed pick. If we want potential in one of the other areas then we ought to trade down and hedge our bet by gaining another asset.

Again, We should not be looking at a rookie to fix our defensive woes by hopefully panning out in 2+ years. That defensive change absolutely has to come from within, mainly with KAT. Right now we need to add a quantifiable skill set to our rotation. Markannen is the only prospect who can provide us with that at that point in the draft. However, going by Thibs style, I see a slim chance of Markannen being the pick.

A 1 trick pony is not substance. It's something you can just sign in the off season. You're focused too much on filing immediate needs and that's just a bad way to draft. The holes need to be fixed by the existing players on the team and in free agency because rookies are rarely positive contributors. If Markkanen comes in and can only shoot he can't stay in the rotation because he'll get exposed defensively and we'll get exposed on the boards. Meanwhile in 3-4 years he'll be capped out at Ryan Anderson (maybe) while Isaac and Collins will likely be passing him as rotation players because they just do more and I can comfortably say that because Isaac and Collins are great athletes who have "do shit" stats in college while Markkanen is a good shooter who lacks in virtually all other "do shit" areas which is especially troublesome because he's a 7 footer in college. He should have been able to dominate the boards and protect the rim and he was below average in both. Meanwhile Collins and Isaac were both good rebounders and Collins was also a good shot blocker.

I think saying certain guys are just potential guys isn't fair either. For example Jonathon Isaac played on a pretty good team and played less than 27 minutes but still put up stats of 12points 8 rebs 1.2 steals and 1.5 blocks and shot over 50% from the floor. Those aren't overwhelming stats (rebounding is pretty impressive) but it's not just whatever stuff either especially in that amount of minutes. I see him being a possible new age PF some day but I think he will be able to play as a wing as well. I've seen lesser athletes with less length be decent guarding wings. He compares to a Ariza only he might be a couple inches taller and likely will weigh in more as well than when Ariza was drafted.

Some of the good organizations look beyond and find the right player. Sometimes they drop right into their lap. OKC and GS had examples of that where they took Westbrook and Klay higher than people expected. They also had Harden and Curry drop to them perfectly.

Flip looked beyond and picked Lavine and right now that looks like a pretty good pick. We dont know what spot the Wolves will pick yet and the combine hasn't even happened so it's still early in the process. Will the Wolves have someone drop in their lap like Dunn was supposed to have been that guy last draft by many? Or do they look beyond and pick a guy that's a bit unexpected and it turns out well? Idk it will be interesting to see what happens.

So true and funny.

https://twitter.com/davelack/status/862343047291453440

The @DraftExpress Conundrum

Watch "Strengths" video: must have the player.

Watch "Weaknesses" video: do not draft under any circumstances