Minnesota Sports Forum

I'm with Doper on this one. I also think there is a large section of the fan base that wants to see competitive basketball, even if we aren't a legit contender. Our attendance at games went from 29th to 21st in the league and I have to believe a large part of that was because we were actually winning a good portion of our home games. Fans knew they would see a competitive product on the floor.

I also think Thibs has a mandate from Taylor to win now. Folks may not agree with that mandate, but I don't think Taylor is the least bit interested in yet another rebuild after we just cashed in a bunch of young assets to land Butler one year ago.

Camden wrote:I'm surprised and slightly annoyed at how easily fans are dismissing Justin Patton. Perhaps it's because he missed all but a handful of NBA minutes during his rookie season, but the skills he has aren't going anywhere. He's a Walmart-brand version of Karl-Anthony Towns, which is still a pretty good package of tools.

I watched a lot of his G-league games. He plays soft and has a questionable motor. That's a huge problem to me.

Q12543 wrote:I'm with Doper on this one. I also think there is a large section of the fan base that wants to see competitive basketball, even if we aren't a legit contender. Our attendance at games went from 29th to 21st in the league and I have to believe a large part of that was because we were actually winning a good portion of our home games. Fans knew they would see a competitive product on the floor.

I also think Thibs has a mandate from Taylor to win now. Folks may not agree with that mandate, but I don't think Taylor is the least bit interested in yet another rebuild after we just cashed in a bunch of young assets to land Butler one year ago.

Yeah, I hear the points the "trade Butler" guys are making, but I'm with doper on this one too. Butler transformed this team last year and was a joy to watch (except those times when he went a little too "hero" for me at crunch time...never seemed to turn out well). I'm curious to see if he can help make our young players (a group that may have increased by 2 this summer after what appears to be a successful draft by Thibs). I think that's the best chance right now for success for this franchise.

This team should be better this season. Tolliver over Belly may be an upgrade (if Thibs lets Tollver shoot threes at the same pace as last season), and I also think that Rose over Crawford is an upgrade. Combine that with two good draft choices and another year of maturity for KAT, Wig and Tyus, and this team should win another 6-7 games this season...and that would make most of us happy. Of course the rumors of dissension swirling around Butler, Thibs et al could also torpedo this team, but even that could turn out positive if it means replacing the coach mid-season.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm feeling a little more optimistic today about this club.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Just commenting on Cam's point about the time to trade Jimmy was on draft night. That would have been preferred, But i still think there is a window to move him up until training camp. And then of course at the deadline, but I'm sure his trade value would be much less at that point.

Thibs is here and Jimmy is here. Just let that pipe dream die. At best Thibs would be fired at the deadline and that would require a disaster of a start which isn't happening because we have a good team. It's just not happening.

But don't you agree that he SHOULD be moved? I just fail to see the upside of keeping him

I don't agree that Jimmy should be moved. Name a team that trades away their best player and wins? Does Oladipo make Indiana a contender? How'd the Clippers do with the CP3 deal? Are they gonna be a contender any time soon with those pieces? How'd Cleveland do with the Kyrie deal? They got whooped even harder in the finals after barely making it there against a decimated Boston team while almost losing to Oladipo in the first round. I would say Oladipo has been the best case scenario and he's neither better than PG13 nor is he helping Indiana win a title so what have they gained? Just a solid team which we already have and which isn't good enough for your expectations anyway.

As for Thibs I don't have any strong preferences. Everyone hates him for getting his guys and yet this team has only been able to win more than 50% of their games when Thib's guys have been playing so I'm not as positive as most of you here that no Thibs and no Jimmy is ever gonna result in more wins. There's nothing that gives me hope that would be the case. I think we'd just be a mediocre team needing to win every game 130-129 because they just can't defend and that's been there since before Thibs. I'm not trying to pull out the floor to have a perceived ceiling high enough to win a title because I put those odds at less than 10% given where Wiggins and Towns are.

Are you satisfied with battling for a playoff spot every year with virtually no hope once the playoffs start? If you are then I get your point. I just think we are wasting time with Butler here. The longer he stays the less we get for him. I want to be a real contender, and that ain't happening with Jimmy here. But if we were to parlay him into several assets at least we would have a chance.

I'm satisfied with it because as long as Glen Taylor is still here that is all this team can be.

Camden wrote:I'm surprised and slightly annoyed at how easily fans are dismissing Justin Patton. Perhaps it's because he missed all but a handful of NBA minutes during his rookie season, but the skills he has aren't going anywhere. He's a Walmart-brand version of Karl-Anthony Towns, which is still a pretty good package of tools.

Because Patton has to get his foot healthy before we can even find out how good he can be in the NBA. By the time we might even a clue of what Patton is a player, his rookie contract is over. Based on how he did in G-League, what he offers isn't necessarily what this team needs, let alone alongside Towns.

After all the years of futility I don't blame any fan who wants us to be competitive and winning as many games as possible. That's not my stance, but I don't begrudge anyone for taking it.

However I think we jumped the gun on the Butler trade and it has put a ceiling on our potential. I'd gladly trade him back to Chicago for the same assets. And I am sure there are other deals out there that would benefit us in the long run. But of course this franchise is going to wait too long and we are either going to get $.50 on the dollar at the trade deadline or he is going to walk for nothing at the end of his contract. I guess we could hope for a sign and trade, but that's always sketchy - just ask the Cavs today.

So the next rebuild is inevitable. If you want to push it back for one more year that's your prerogative. But it's going to be harder the longer we wait.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:After all the years of futility I don't blame any fan who wants us to be competitive and winning as many games as possible. That's not my stance, but I don't begrudge anyone for taking it.

However I think we jumped the gun on the Butler trade and it has put a ceiling on our potential. I'd gladly trade him back to Chicago for the same assets. And I am sure there are other deals out there that would benefit us in the long run. But of course this franchise is going to wait too long and we are either going to get $.50 on the dollar at the trade deadline or he is going to walk for nothing at the end of his contract. I guess we could hope for a sign and trade, but that's always sketchy - just ask the Cavs today.

So the next rebuild is inevitable. If you want to push it back for one more year that's your prerogative. But it's going to be harder the longer we wait.

Better to be set back in a year and have money to work with than end the franchise for another decade on a prospect whiff...again. I just don't know how you can say the next rebuild is inevitable and still have any faith that a Towns, Wiggins, Doncic or whoever core could have won a title. That seems like having your cake and eating it too. Towns and Wiggins are part of both of those scenarios that range from title to bum. That math doesn't work.

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:After all the years of futility I don't blame any fan who wants us to be competitive and winning as many games as possible. That's not my stance, but I don't begrudge anyone for taking it.

However I think we jumped the gun on the Butler trade and it has put a ceiling on our potential. I'd gladly trade him back to Chicago for the same assets. And I am sure there are other deals out there that would benefit us in the long run. But of course this franchise is going to wait too long and we are either going to get $.50 on the dollar at the trade deadline or he is going to walk for nothing at the end of his contract. I guess we could hope for a sign and trade, but that's always sketchy - just ask the Cavs today.

So the next rebuild is inevitable. If you want to push it back for one more year that's your prerogative. But it's going to be harder the longer we wait.

Better to be set back in a year and have money to work with than end the franchise for another decade on a prospect whiff...again. I just don't know how you can say the next rebuild is inevitable and still have any faith that a Towns, Wiggins, Doncic or whoever core could have won a title. That seems like having your cake and eating it too. Towns and Wiggins are part of both of those scenarios that range from title to bum. That math doesn't work.

The time to add a piece like Butler is when you are fully ready to contend, and those opportunities will come once you've established yourself as a contender. Pretty much every current contender has done it that way. Houston acquired CP3, Golden State got Durant and now Cousins, Boston added Heyward and Kyrie, OKC went out and got Melo and George. We just jumped the gun when our core hadn't established themselves as even a playoff team. We blew our assets on a good, not great player who is injury prone and may be looking for an out. I don't care how many times we've had to rebuild in the past, if you want to win a title we need to make the right decisions going forward. And one of those decisions is to maximize the return on Butler. Time is running out.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:After all the years of futility I don't blame any fan who wants us to be competitive and winning as many games as possible. That's not my stance, but I don't begrudge anyone for taking it.

However I think we jumped the gun on the Butler trade and it has put a ceiling on our potential. I'd gladly trade him back to Chicago for the same assets. And I am sure there are other deals out there that would benefit us in the long run. But of course this franchise is going to wait too long and we are either going to get $.50 on the dollar at the trade deadline or he is going to walk for nothing at the end of his contract. I guess we could hope for a sign and trade, but that's always sketchy - just ask the Cavs today.

So the next rebuild is inevitable. If you want to push it back for one more year that's your prerogative. But it's going to be harder the longer we wait.

Better to be set back in a year and have money to work with than end the franchise for another decade on a prospect whiff...again. I just don't know how you can say the next rebuild is inevitable and still have any faith that a Towns, Wiggins, Doncic or whoever core could have won a title. That seems like having your cake and eating it too. Towns and Wiggins are part of both of those scenarios that range from title to bum. That math doesn't work.

The time to add a piece like Butler is when you are fully ready to contend, and those opportunities will come once you've established yourself as a contender. Pretty much every current contender has done it that way. Houston acquired CP3, Golden State got Durant and now Cousins, Boston added Heyward and Kyrie, OKC went out and got Melo and George. We just jumped the gun when our core hadn't established themselves as even a playoff team. We blew our assets on a good, not great player who is injury prone and may be looking for an out. I don't care how many times we've had to rebuild in the past, if you want to win a title we need to make the right decisions going forward. And one of those decisions is to maximize the return on Butler. Time is running out.

First off Jimmy is a great player. He's legit an All-NBA player every year. He's not some ok All-Star. He's in the second tier of the NBA behind only guys like Lebron, Harden, KD, AD and Steph. Second off, what's stopping us from adding that piece when we are ready to contend? You mentioned we added it too early. Why are we not able to add one in 5 years when we are actually ready to contend because the current guard ages out? It seems perfect to me that we can win a bunch with Jimmy, potentially get him for a 3+1 max (most likely max) and then rebuild around Towns and Wiggins at that time when they are 27-28 and in their prime.

Jimmy lines up almost perfectly because he establishes a winning culture on a team full of immature kids and then can get out of the way when it's time to contend or maybe even be a key bench player if he wants to. Jimmy is our Lee, Bogut and Iggy all wrapped up in one package. People tend to forget those guys and what they did to help establish the culture in GS before the young guys actually took over.

Most of the good players Towns and Wiggins age won't be able to join them for another 4-5 years anyways because they themselves are getting locked into long-term extensions. The difference is you are trying to lock that in now with a prospect and hope it works versus winning now and in 4-5 years be a destination for those new unrestricted free agents to join us while having a better idea if we even can be a contender with Towns and Wiggins. Contenders aren't built 5 years in advance. Most of the foundation is built (Towns, Wiggins, Tyus, Okogie), but a lot of the things that put the team over the top happen around the time of contending (Durant to GS, CP3 to Houston, Love to Cleveland, etc.).

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:After all the years of futility I don't blame any fan who wants us to be competitive and winning as many games as possible. That's not my stance, but I don't begrudge anyone for taking it.

However I think we jumped the gun on the Butler trade and it has put a ceiling on our potential. I'd gladly trade him back to Chicago for the same assets. And I am sure there are other deals out there that would benefit us in the long run. But of course this franchise is going to wait too long and we are either going to get $.50 on the dollar at the trade deadline or he is going to walk for nothing at the end of his contract. I guess we could hope for a sign and trade, but that's always sketchy - just ask the Cavs today.

So the next rebuild is inevitable. If you want to push it back for one more year that's your prerogative. But it's going to be harder the longer we wait.

Better to be set back in a year and have money to work with than end the franchise for another decade on a prospect whiff...again. I just don't know how you can say the next rebuild is inevitable and still have any faith that a Towns, Wiggins, Doncic or whoever core could have won a title. That seems like having your cake and eating it too. Towns and Wiggins are part of both of those scenarios that range from title to bum. That math doesn't work.

The time to add a piece like Butler is when you are fully ready to contend, and those opportunities will come once you've established yourself as a contender. Pretty much every current contender has done it that way. Houston acquired CP3, Golden State got Durant and now Cousins, Boston added Heyward and Kyrie, OKC went out and got Melo and George. We just jumped the gun when our core hadn't established themselves as even a playoff team. We blew our assets on a good, not great player who is injury prone and may be looking for an out. I don't care how many times we've had to rebuild in the past, if you want to win a title we need to make the right decisions going forward. And one of those decisions is to maximize the return on Butler. Time is running out.

They were ready to stop losing so much. This rebuild is unlike other situations in the NBA because of how long they've been out.

The core didn't look any closer to establishing itself as a playoff team. That was the problem. The core that was being assembled wasn't good enough to do it on their own and seemed so far away from getting there without setting the all-time record for playoff drought in the NBA. And let's be honest. Butler was brought here to be the guy Wiggins failed to be. If Wiggins was living up to expectations, we wouldn't have needed Butler. There was no guarantee that this core was going to be a good core and if this team had nothing to show for their efforts (meaning not even one playoff appearance,) I don't see how any fan could have hope for anything regarding this team.