Minnesota Sports Forum

khans2k5 wrote:Thibs and Jimmy are gone in 8 months so why is it imperative to your guys fandom that they be jettisoned now over 8 months from now? That makes no sense to me. I could understand if it looked like they were here to stay for the long haul, but they aren't. After all this time of being a terrible organization I find it a bit ridiculous this season is the final straw with people and they are shutting it down for good considering their griping points will not be here next season.

Oh Khansy, just admit it. You're going to really miss Lip and Monster if they move on! I know I would!

Seriously though, there is a reason that the term "the last straw" exists. You are probably right with your assessment on Thibs and Butler, but just the totality of this shit show plus all the other embarrassments...it eventually reaches a tipping point for people.

sjm34 wrote:Gery Woelfel: NBA teams aren't exactly blowing away Minnesota officials with offers for ex-Marquette standout Jimmy Butler, Sources say the Heat offered Josh Richardson, Kelly Olynyk and a protected first-round pick. Twolves wisely took a pass.
- via Twitter GeryWoelfel

If that was the deal I say yes no problem. Olynyk has a very movable salary. I find it hard to believe that was the trade, but if Thibs can't say yes to that I could see why Miami walked away.

thedoper wrote:

sjm34 wrote:Gery Woelfel: NBA teams aren't exactly blowing away Minnesota officials with offers for ex-Marquette standout Jimmy Butler, Sources say the Heat offered Josh Richardson, Kelly Olynyk and a protected first-round pick. Twolves wisely took a pass.
- via Twitter GeryWoelfel

If that was the deal I say yes no problem. Olynyk has a very movable salary. I find it hard to believe that was the trade, but if Thibs can't say yes to that I could see why Miami walked away.

I agree, Doper. I suspect that was the deal, which makes more sense and helps explain why Riley was so incredulous when Thibodeau upped the ante at the last minute. That would have been a terrific deal for the Wolves.

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

sjm34 wrote:Gery Woelfel: NBA teams aren't exactly blowing away Minnesota officials with offers for ex-Marquette standout Jimmy Butler, Sources say the Heat offered Josh Richardson, Kelly Olynyk and a protected first-round pick. Twolves wisely took a pass.
- via Twitter GeryWoelfel

If that was the deal I say yes no problem. Olynyk has a very movable salary. I find it hard to believe that was the trade, but if Thibs can't say yes to that I could see why Miami walked away.

I agree, Doper. I suspect that was the deal, which makes more sense and helps explain why Riley was so incredulous when Thibodeau upped the ante at the last minute. That would have been a terrific deal for the Wolves.

Well if Thibs holds out and gets that pick unprotected all the power to him. If that really was the deal it is no wonder the report was that they were close. But it does seem strange that Thibs would turn down talent and cap flexibility in one deal. Plus Olynyk is a fine placeholder for when Taj gets dumped and we are looking for a long term big to play next to KAT. I hope the nuances are just about the pick protection. There was a story yesterday that Riley announced to his team that they were walking away from the table, which immediately signaled to me that there must be something imminent. :) I just want to get something over with. I find it strange to watch the games and not give a shit about what our best player is doing out there.

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

sjm34 wrote:Gery Woelfel: NBA teams aren't exactly blowing away Minnesota officials with offers for ex-Marquette standout Jimmy Butler, Sources say the Heat offered Josh Richardson, Kelly Olynyk and a protected first-round pick. Twolves wisely took a pass.
- via Twitter GeryWoelfel

If that was the deal I say yes no problem. Olynyk has a very movable salary. I find it hard to believe that was the trade, but if Thibs can't say yes to that I could see why Miami walked away.

I agree, Doper. I suspect that was the deal, which makes more sense and helps explain why Riley was so incredulous when Thibodeau upped the ante at the last minute. That would have been a terrific deal for the Wolves.

Well if Thibs holds out and gets that pick unprotected all the power to him. If that really was the deal it is no wonder the report was that they were close. But it does seem strange that Thibs would turn down talent and cap flexibility in one deal. Plus Olynyk is a fine placeholder for when Taj gets dumped and we are looking for a long term big to play next to KAT. I hope the nuances are just about the pick protection. There was a story yesterday that Riley announced to his team that they were walking away from the table, which immediately signaled to me that there must be something imminent. :) I just want to get something over with. I find it strange to watch the games and not give a shit about what our best player is doing out there.

Doper - Your posts on this subject continue to express exactly what I'm feeing and thinking. Perhaps my only minor disagreement is that killing the deal over whether the Miami pick was protected just adds to the long list of examples demonstrating Thibodeau's incompetence. It's almost a certainty that Miami makes the playoffs this season with Butler. Therefore, lottery protection is largely irrelevant. The Heat were the 6th seed last season without Butler and it's highly unlikely they'd somehow finish out of the top 8 this season with Butler. To lose the chance to get Richardson and put this thing behind us over whether that pick was lottery protected strikes me as lunacy or simply part of Thibodeau's grand design to keep Butler. I'm not convinced it's the latter.

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

sjm34 wrote:Gery Woelfel: NBA teams aren't exactly blowing away Minnesota officials with offers for ex-Marquette standout Jimmy Butler, Sources say the Heat offered Josh Richardson, Kelly Olynyk and a protected first-round pick. Twolves wisely took a pass.
- via Twitter GeryWoelfel

If that was the deal I say yes no problem. Olynyk has a very movable salary. I find it hard to believe that was the trade, but if Thibs can't say yes to that I could see why Miami walked away.

I agree, Doper. I suspect that was the deal, which makes more sense and helps explain why Riley was so incredulous when Thibodeau upped the ante at the last minute. That would have been a terrific deal for the Wolves.

Well if Thibs holds out and gets that pick unprotected all the power to him. If that really was the deal it is no wonder the report was that they were close. But it does seem strange that Thibs would turn down talent and cap flexibility in one deal. Plus Olynyk is a fine placeholder for when Taj gets dumped and we are looking for a long term big to play next to KAT. I hope the nuances are just about the pick protection. There was a story yesterday that Riley announced to his team that they were walking away from the table, which immediately signaled to me that there must be something imminent. :) I just want to get something over with. I find it strange to watch the games and not give a shit about what our best player is doing out there.

Doper - Your posts on this subject continue to express exactly what I'm feeing and thinking. Perhaps my only minor disagreement is that killing the deal over whether the Miami pick was protected just adds to the long list of examples demonstrating Thibodeau's incompetence. It's almost a certainty that Miami makes the playoffs this season with Butler. Therefore, lottery protection is largely irrelevant. The Heat were the 6th seed last season without Butler and it's highly unlikely they'd somehow finish out of the top 8 this season with Butler. To lose the chance to get Richardson and put this thing behind us over whether that pick was lottery protected strikes me as lunacy or simply part of Thibodeau's grand design to keep Butler. I'm not convinced it's the latter.

FWIW the tweet from Gery Woelfel...I doubt is credible. I'd say he is about equivalent to Jerry Zgoda in knowing anything and he is a Bucks reporter! Look up the tweet and see all the people saying he doesn't know anything. I'm not basing my opinion on that but other stuff he has said on Twitter in the past couple years that doesn't hold water.

If that really was the deal and we passed then yeah it's probably bad we said no. Miami folks have said they think the Heat wouldn't really want to move Olynyk. I doubt he is a deal breaker but I doubt they want to move him. The report supposedly Miami relented on Richardson it doesn't say jack about something else like Olynyk. That wound have had to be discussed before.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

sjm34 wrote:Gery Woelfel: NBA teams aren't exactly blowing away Minnesota officials with offers for ex-Marquette standout Jimmy Butler, Sources say the Heat offered Josh Richardson, Kelly Olynyk and a protected first-round pick. Twolves wisely took a pass.
- via Twitter GeryWoelfel

If that was the deal I say yes no problem. Olynyk has a very movable salary. I find it hard to believe that was the trade, but if Thibs can't say yes to that I could see why Miami walked away.

I agree, Doper. I suspect that was the deal, which makes more sense and helps explain why Riley was so incredulous when Thibodeau upped the ante at the last minute. That would have been a terrific deal for the Wolves.

Well if Thibs holds out and gets that pick unprotected all the power to him. If that really was the deal it is no wonder the report was that they were close. But it does seem strange that Thibs would turn down talent and cap flexibility in one deal. Plus Olynyk is a fine placeholder for when Taj gets dumped and we are looking for a long term big to play next to KAT. I hope the nuances are just about the pick protection. There was a story yesterday that Riley announced to his team that they were walking away from the table, which immediately signaled to me that there must be something imminent. :) I just want to get something over with. I find it strange to watch the games and not give a shit about what our best player is doing out there.

Doper - Your posts on this subject continue to express exactly what I'm feeing and thinking. Perhaps my only minor disagreement is that killing the deal over whether the Miami pick was protected just adds to the long list of examples demonstrating Thibodeau's incompetence. It's almost a certainty that Miami makes the playoffs this season with Butler. Therefore, lottery protection is largely irrelevant. The Heat were the 6th seed last season without Butler and it's highly unlikely they'd somehow finish out of the top 8 this season with Butler. To lose the chance to get Richardson and put this thing behind us over whether that pick was lottery protected strikes me as lunacy or simply part of Thibodeau's grand design to keep Butler. I'm not convinced it's the latter.

FWIW the tweet from Gery Woelfel...I doubt is credible. I'd say he is about equivalent to Jerry Zgoda in knowing anything and he is a Bucks reporter! Look up the tweet and see all the people saying he doesn't know anything. I'm not basing my opinion on that but other stuff he has said on Twitter in the past couple years that doesn't hold water.

If that really was the deal and we passed then yeah it's probably bad we said no. Miami folks have said they think the Heat wouldn't really want to move Olynyk. I doubt he is a deal breaker but I doubt they want to move him. The report supposedly Miami relented on Richardson it doesn't say jack about something else like Olynyk. That wound have had to be discussed before.

I think it's plausible that it was Olynyk. But even if it were Waiters, I'd still say we should have taken it with Richardson and the Miami pick. It's clear that was Butler's market value and there is not reasonable basis for believing that Butler's value will go up over the course of the season. Thibodeau botched this miserably by not dealing the the Butler situation when it initially surfaced internally, which was at least as early as May and likely back in April. That was the time to either get full buy-in from Butler or deal him. That inexcusable mistake by Thibodeau back then has created the situation we're in today. And Butler's unfortunately low trade value is the direct resort. Thibodeau simply compounds his mistake by stubbornly holding onto Butler based either on his intent to keep him no matter what or his inability to comprehend the concept of market value.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

sjm34 wrote:Gery Woelfel: NBA teams aren't exactly blowing away Minnesota officials with offers for ex-Marquette standout Jimmy Butler, Sources say the Heat offered Josh Richardson, Kelly Olynyk and a protected first-round pick. Twolves wisely took a pass.
- via Twitter GeryWoelfel

If that was the deal I say yes no problem. Olynyk has a very movable salary. I find it hard to believe that was the trade, but if Thibs can't say yes to that I could see why Miami walked away.

I agree, Doper. I suspect that was the deal, which makes more sense and helps explain why Riley was so incredulous when Thibodeau upped the ante at the last minute. That would have been a terrific deal for the Wolves.

Well if Thibs holds out and gets that pick unprotected all the power to him. If that really was the deal it is no wonder the report was that they were close. But it does seem strange that Thibs would turn down talent and cap flexibility in one deal. Plus Olynyk is a fine placeholder for when Taj gets dumped and we are looking for a long term big to play next to KAT. I hope the nuances are just about the pick protection. There was a story yesterday that Riley announced to his team that they were walking away from the table, which immediately signaled to me that there must be something imminent. :) I just want to get something over with. I find it strange to watch the games and not give a shit about what our best player is doing out there.

Doper - Your posts on this subject continue to express exactly what I'm feeing and thinking. Perhaps my only minor disagreement is that killing the deal over whether the Miami pick was protected just adds to the long list of examples demonstrating Thibodeau's incompetence. It's almost a certainty that Miami makes the playoffs this season with Butler. Therefore, lottery protection is largely irrelevant. The Heat were the 6th seed last season without Butler and it's highly unlikely they'd somehow finish out of the top 8 this season with Butler. To lose the chance to get Richardson and put this thing behind us over whether that pick was lottery protected strikes me as lunacy or simply part of Thibodeau's grand design to keep Butler. I'm not convinced it's the latter.

FWIW the tweet from Gery Woelfel...I doubt is credible. I'd say he is about equivalent to Jerry Zgoda in knowing anything and he is a Bucks reporter! Look up the tweet and see all the people saying he doesn't know anything. I'm not basing my opinion on that but other stuff he has said on Twitter in the past couple years that doesn't hold water.

If that really was the deal and we passed then yeah it's probably bad we said no. Miami folks have said they think the Heat wouldn't really want to move Olynyk. I doubt he is a deal breaker but I doubt they want to move him. The report supposedly Miami relented on Richardson it doesn't say jack about something else like Olynyk. That wound have had to be discussed before.

I think it's plausible that it was Olynyk. But even if it were Waiters, I'd still say we should have taken it with Richardson and the Miami pick. It's clear that was Butler's market value and there is not reasonable basis for believing that Butler's value will go up over the course of the season. Thibodeau botched this miserably by not dealing the the Butler situation when it initially surfaced internally, which was at least as early as May and likely back in April. That was the time to either get full buy-in from Butler or deal him. That inexcusable mistake by Thibodeau back then has created the situation we're in today. And Butler's unfortunately low trade value is the direct resort. Thibodeau simply compounds his mistake by stubbornly holding onto Butler based either on his intent to keep him no matter what or his inability to comprehend the concept of market value.

There are smart people out there that aren't Thibs guys or super Butler fans that might have turned down the Richardson Olynyk and 1st for Butler. Again that's a ton of money added to the payroll for the next 3 years. It should not be taken lightly. Again this is why I put forth the idea of comparing the deals for Butler of Otto Porter and Richardson and Waiters to see how people felt which was interesting in a few ways.

Also I can respect you thinking Olynyk was in this deal but other than this random tweet from some Bucks reporter there is nothing that makes me think he was. I personally doubt he was but you are obviously entitled to your speculation. :)

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

sjm34 wrote:Gery Woelfel: NBA teams aren't exactly blowing away Minnesota officials with offers for ex-Marquette standout Jimmy Butler, Sources say the Heat offered Josh Richardson, Kelly Olynyk and a protected first-round pick. Twolves wisely took a pass.
- via Twitter GeryWoelfel

If that was the deal I say yes no problem. Olynyk has a very movable salary. I find it hard to believe that was the trade, but if Thibs can't say yes to that I could see why Miami walked away.

I agree, Doper. I suspect that was the deal, which makes more sense and helps explain why Riley was so incredulous when Thibodeau upped the ante at the last minute. That would have been a terrific deal for the Wolves.

Well if Thibs holds out and gets that pick unprotected all the power to him. If that really was the deal it is no wonder the report was that they were close. But it does seem strange that Thibs would turn down talent and cap flexibility in one deal. Plus Olynyk is a fine placeholder for when Taj gets dumped and we are looking for a long term big to play next to KAT. I hope the nuances are just about the pick protection. There was a story yesterday that Riley announced to his team that they were walking away from the table, which immediately signaled to me that there must be something imminent. :) I just want to get something over with. I find it strange to watch the games and not give a shit about what our best player is doing out there.

Doper - Your posts on this subject continue to express exactly what I'm feeing and thinking. Perhaps my only minor disagreement is that killing the deal over whether the Miami pick was protected just adds to the long list of examples demonstrating Thibodeau's incompetence. It's almost a certainty that Miami makes the playoffs this season with Butler. Therefore, lottery protection is largely irrelevant. The Heat were the 6th seed last season without Butler and it's highly unlikely they'd somehow finish out of the top 8 this season with Butler. To lose the chance to get Richardson and put this thing behind us over whether that pick was lottery protected strikes me as lunacy or simply part of Thibodeau's grand design to keep Butler. I'm not convinced it's the latter.

FWIW the tweet from Gery Woelfel...I doubt is credible. I'd say he is about equivalent to Jerry Zgoda in knowing anything and he is a Bucks reporter! Look up the tweet and see all the people saying he doesn't know anything. I'm not basing my opinion on that but other stuff he has said on Twitter in the past couple years that doesn't hold water.

If that really was the deal and we passed then yeah it's probably bad we said no. Miami folks have said they think the Heat wouldn't really want to move Olynyk. I doubt he is a deal breaker but I doubt they want to move him. The report supposedly Miami relented on Richardson it doesn't say jack about something else like Olynyk. That wound have had to be discussed before.

I think it's plausible that it was Olynyk. But even if it were Waiters, I'd still say we should have taken it with Richardson and the Miami pick. It's clear that was Butler's market value and there is not reasonable basis for believing that Butler's value will go up over the course of the season. Thibodeau botched this miserably by not dealing the the Butler situation when it initially surfaced internally, which was at least as early as May and likely back in April. That was the time to either get full buy-in from Butler or deal him. That inexcusable mistake by Thibodeau back then has created the situation we're in today. And Butler's unfortunately low trade value is the direct resort. Thibodeau simply compounds his mistake by stubbornly holding onto Butler based either on his intent to keep him no matter what or his inability to comprehend the concept of market value.

There are smart people out there that aren't Thibs guys or super Butler fans that might have turned down the Richardson Olynyk and 1st for Butler. Again that's a ton of money added to the payroll for the next 3 years. It should not be taken lightly. Again this is why I put forth the idea of comparing the deals for Butler of Otto Porter and Richardson and Waiters to see how people felt which was interesting in a few ways.

Also I can respect you thinking Olynyk was in this deal but other than this random tweet from some Bucks reporter there is nothing that makes me think he was. I personally doubt he was but you are obviously entitled to your speculation. :)

My only reason really for liking this over Waiters is we still need someone to play when Taj leaves. I'm not sure there is a coach who could make the KAT G front court super effective in long minutes. Waiters would just give us another problematic wing, and we have enough of them. I can see why Thibs said no even in this deal, but I wouldn't have. I think Olynyk at his salary is a movable commodity, not so sure Waiters is the same.

Richardson, olynyk, and 1st is a bad deal unless we send salary out.

Olynyk is the better than dion, but his role in the deal is the same for miami; shed salary.

There is no way we should be giving up the best player and being the team to take on long term salary.