Minnesota Sports Forum

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:It's 2 games in but I'm leaning towards going full Thibs and LST...keep Butler and let's see what happens. The best deal we have seen reported basically means paying near max money (when you consider total salaries of the players coming back) for what might be a complimentary player not a true max guy. If someone comes with a real offer that is something close to real value for Butler then yeah let's talk but bring something legit or don't call.

Part of that is I just don't see a team with super awkwardness at this point. Jimmy is just Jimmy having fun and also kicking butt and he isn't in top form yet. This team did some nice stuff in the first 2games and it seems like there is a chance it actually has some depth. Now I gotta get out of the habit of checking twitter for details om Butler 17,598,417 times a day.

I'll never forgive Lip for lumping me in with Thibs...I'm leaving the board if this outrage continues :) !

Lol. I know that was a low blow. But your deserved it. :) I'll confess that there a part of me that wants to see Jimmy Butler remain with the team this season. But the problem is that he doesn't want to be here and will eventually leave. The more we watch the team with Butler the more we'll get sucked into the joy of it all. But all along, we have to know that we will probably wake up one day and find that the rug has been pulled out from under us and the joy obliterated with the news Jimmy has been traded. Or pehaps he doesn't leave until next summer, at which point we have nothing of value in return for him. Either way, it's bad. So as you and Monster morph into fan versions of Thibs, I will soldier on alone as the singular voice of reason. :) Meanwhile, I might catch a glimpse of LST in the crowd incessantly screaming obscenities and constantly barking directions at Wolves players. Then I'll know the metamorphosis is complete. :)

It's amazing that we can look at this situation so differently. I see Butler leaving as a great thing for the intermediate and long term health of the franchise. I will have a very good day when he gets moved or moves on. His incredulousness about why the fans would boo him last night shows what a dumbass he truly is.

Cool - I think my view is similar to yours. Jimmy makes us better this season if he stays, but he has no realistic long-term trajectory with this team. Therefore, he has to be moved in my judgment. And anyone, including Thibodeau, who thinks we're going to get a comparably established allstar back in return is kidding himself. Richardson, a 2019 lottery protected 1st and either Waiters or Olynyk was and is Butler's market value. The Wolves should have made that trade.

lipoli390 wrote:

Cool - I think my view is similar to yours. Jimmy makes us better this season if he stays, but he has no realistic long-term trajectory with this team. Therefore, he has to be moved in my judgment. And anyone, including Thibodeau, who thinks we're going to get a comparably established allstar back in return is kidding himself. Richardson, a 2019 lottery protected 1st and Adebayo was and is Butler's market value. The Wolves should have made that trade.

I fixed it for you Lip!

If Miami offered that, his market is higher.

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:It's 2 games in but I'm leaning towards going full Thibs and LST...keep Butler and let's see what happens. The best deal we have seen reported basically means paying near max money (when you consider total salaries of the players coming back) for what might be a complimentary player not a true max guy. If someone comes with a real offer that is something close to real value for Butler then yeah let's talk but bring something legit or don't call.

Part of that is I just don't see a team with super awkwardness at this point. Jimmy is just Jimmy having fun and also kicking butt and he isn't in top form yet. This team did some nice stuff in the first 2games and it seems like there is a chance it actually has some depth. Now I gotta get out of the habit of checking twitter for details om Butler 17,598,417 times a day.

I'll never forgive Lip for lumping me in with Thibs...I'm leaving the board if this outrage continues :) !

Lol. I know that was a low blow. But your deserved it. :) I'll confess that there a part of me that wants to see Jimmy Butler remain with the team this season. But the problem is that he doesn't want to be here and will eventually leave. The more we watch the team with Butler the more we'll get sucked into the joy of it all. But all along, we have to know that we will probably wake up one day and find that the rug has been pulled out from under us and the joy obliterated with the news Jimmy has been traded. Or pehaps he doesn't leave until next summer, at which point we have nothing of value in return for him. Either way, it's bad. So as you and Monster morph into fan versions of Thibs, I will soldier on alone as the singular voice of reason. :) Meanwhile, I might catch a glimpse of LST in the crowd incessantly screaming obscenities and constantly barking directions at Wolves players. Then I'll know the metamorphosis is complete. :)

It's amazing that we can look at this situation so differently. I see Butler leaving as a great thing for the intermediate and long term health of the franchise. I will have a very good day when he gets moved or moves on. His incredulousness about why the fans would boo him last night shows what a dumbass he truly is.

Cool - I think my view is similar to yours. Jimmy makes us better this season if he stays, but he has no realistic long-term trajectory with this team. Therefore, he has to be moved in my judgment. And anyone, including Thibodeau, who thinks we're going to get a comparably established allstar back in return is kidding himself. Richardson, a 2019 lottery protected 1st and either Waiters or Olynyk was and is Butler's market value. The Wolves should have made that trade.

When the market value is bad you don't force a trade just to make a trade.

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:It's 2 games in but I'm leaning towards going full Thibs and LST...keep Butler and let's see what happens. The best deal we have seen reported basically means paying near max money (when you consider total salaries of the players coming back) for what might be a complimentary player not a true max guy. If someone comes with a real offer that is something close to real value for Butler then yeah let's talk but bring something legit or don't call.

Part of that is I just don't see a team with super awkwardness at this point. Jimmy is just Jimmy having fun and also kicking butt and he isn't in top form yet. This team did some nice stuff in the first 2games and it seems like there is a chance it actually has some depth. Now I gotta get out of the habit of checking twitter for details om Butler 17,598,417 times a day.

I'll never forgive Lip for lumping me in with Thibs...I'm leaving the board if this outrage continues :) !

Lol. I know that was a low blow. But your deserved it. :) I'll confess that there a part of me that wants to see Jimmy Butler remain with the team this season. But the problem is that he doesn't want to be here and will eventually leave. The more we watch the team with Butler the more we'll get sucked into the joy of it all. But all along, we have to know that we will probably wake up one day and find that the rug has been pulled out from under us and the joy obliterated with the news Jimmy has been traded. Or pehaps he doesn't leave until next summer, at which point we have nothing of value in return for him. Either way, it's bad. So as you and Monster morph into fan versions of Thibs, I will soldier on alone as the singular voice of reason. :) Meanwhile, I might catch a glimpse of LST in the crowd incessantly screaming obscenities and constantly barking directions at Wolves players. Then I'll know the metamorphosis is complete. :)

It's amazing that we can look at this situation so differently. I see Butler leaving as a great thing for the intermediate and long term health of the franchise. I will have a very good day when he gets moved or moves on. His incredulousness about why the fans would boo him last night shows what a dumbass he truly is.

Cool - I think my view is similar to yours. Jimmy makes us better this season if he stays, but he has no realistic long-term trajectory with this team. Therefore, he has to be moved in my judgment. And anyone, including Thibodeau, who thinks we're going to get a comparably established allstar back in return is kidding himself. Richardson, a 2019 lottery protected 1st and either Waiters or Olynyk was and is Butler's market value. The Wolves should have made that trade.

When the market value is bad you don't force a trade just to make a trade.

You do when the player you're trying to trade wants out and will otherwise inevitably leave for nothing next summer as a free agent. Yes, you don't make a trade just to make a trade. You make a trade even if it means pennies on the dollar if you know it's likely you'll get absolutely nothing if you don't. That's the reality we're in and I don't like it any more than you. Thibodeau and a few fans seem to be the only ones who have yet to accept that reality and deal with it.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:It's 2 games in but I'm leaning towards going full Thibs and LST...keep Butler and let's see what happens. The best deal we have seen reported basically means paying near max money (when you consider total salaries of the players coming back) for what might be a complimentary player not a true max guy. If someone comes with a real offer that is something close to real value for Butler then yeah let's talk but bring something legit or don't call.

Part of that is I just don't see a team with super awkwardness at this point. Jimmy is just Jimmy having fun and also kicking butt and he isn't in top form yet. This team did some nice stuff in the first 2games and it seems like there is a chance it actually has some depth. Now I gotta get out of the habit of checking twitter for details om Butler 17,598,417 times a day.

I'll never forgive Lip for lumping me in with Thibs...I'm leaving the board if this outrage continues :) !

Lol. I know that was a low blow. But your deserved it. :) I'll confess that there a part of me that wants to see Jimmy Butler remain with the team this season. But the problem is that he doesn't want to be here and will eventually leave. The more we watch the team with Butler the more we'll get sucked into the joy of it all. But all along, we have to know that we will probably wake up one day and find that the rug has been pulled out from under us and the joy obliterated with the news Jimmy has been traded. Or pehaps he doesn't leave until next summer, at which point we have nothing of value in return for him. Either way, it's bad. So as you and Monster morph into fan versions of Thibs, I will soldier on alone as the singular voice of reason. :) Meanwhile, I might catch a glimpse of LST in the crowd incessantly screaming obscenities and constantly barking directions at Wolves players. Then I'll know the metamorphosis is complete. :)

It's amazing that we can look at this situation so differently. I see Butler leaving as a great thing for the intermediate and long term health of the franchise. I will have a very good day when he gets moved or moves on. His incredulousness about why the fans would boo him last night shows what a dumbass he truly is.

Cool - I think my view is similar to yours. Jimmy makes us better this season if he stays, but he has no realistic long-term trajectory with this team. Therefore, he has to be moved in my judgment. And anyone, including Thibodeau, who thinks we're going to get a comparably established allstar back in return is kidding himself. Richardson, a 2019 lottery protected 1st and either Waiters or Olynyk was and is Butler's market value. The Wolves should have made that trade.

When the market value is bad you don't force a trade just to make a trade.

You do when the player you're trying to trade wants out and will otherwise inevitably leave for nothing next summer as a free agent. Yes, you don't make a trade just to make a trade. You make a trade even if it means pennies on the dollar if you know it's likely you'll get absolutely nothing if you don't. That's the reality we're in and I don't like it any more than you. Thibodeau and a few fans seem to be the only ones who have yet to accept that reality and deal with it.

On the other hand there is a lot more money in these trades than pennies and dollars. That's a pretty significant issue of some of these deals.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:It's 2 games in but I'm leaning towards going full Thibs and LST...keep Butler and let's see what happens. The best deal we have seen reported basically means paying near max money (when you consider total salaries of the players coming back) for what might be a complimentary player not a true max guy. If someone comes with a real offer that is something close to real value for Butler then yeah let's talk but bring something legit or don't call.

Part of that is I just don't see a team with super awkwardness at this point. Jimmy is just Jimmy having fun and also kicking butt and he isn't in top form yet. This team did some nice stuff in the first 2games and it seems like there is a chance it actually has some depth. Now I gotta get out of the habit of checking twitter for details om Butler 17,598,417 times a day.

I'll never forgive Lip for lumping me in with Thibs...I'm leaving the board if this outrage continues :) !

Lol. I know that was a low blow. But your deserved it. :) I'll confess that there a part of me that wants to see Jimmy Butler remain with the team this season. But the problem is that he doesn't want to be here and will eventually leave. The more we watch the team with Butler the more we'll get sucked into the joy of it all. But all along, we have to know that we will probably wake up one day and find that the rug has been pulled out from under us and the joy obliterated with the news Jimmy has been traded. Or pehaps he doesn't leave until next summer, at which point we have nothing of value in return for him. Either way, it's bad. So as you and Monster morph into fan versions of Thibs, I will soldier on alone as the singular voice of reason. :) Meanwhile, I might catch a glimpse of LST in the crowd incessantly screaming obscenities and constantly barking directions at Wolves players. Then I'll know the metamorphosis is complete. :)

It's amazing that we can look at this situation so differently. I see Butler leaving as a great thing for the intermediate and long term health of the franchise. I will have a very good day when he gets moved or moves on. His incredulousness about why the fans would boo him last night shows what a dumbass he truly is.

Cool - I think my view is similar to yours. Jimmy makes us better this season if he stays, but he has no realistic long-term trajectory with this team. Therefore, he has to be moved in my judgment. And anyone, including Thibodeau, who thinks we're going to get a comparably established allstar back in return is kidding himself. Richardson, a 2019 lottery protected 1st and either Waiters or Olynyk was and is Butler's market value. The Wolves should have made that trade.

When the market value is bad you don't force a trade just to make a trade.

You do when the player you're trying to trade wants out and will otherwise inevitably leave for nothing next summer as a free agent. Yes, you don't make a trade just to make a trade. You make a trade even if it means pennies on the dollar if you know it's likely you'll get absolutely nothing if you don't. That's the reality we're in and I don't like it any more than you. Thibodeau and a few fans seem to be the only ones who have yet to accept that reality and deal with it.

I don't know why I am even responding to this because I know we disagree on this but if the trade is going to F up our cap space for 3 years taking on Waiters you don't do the trade. We can't offered having 3 untradeable contracts on the roster.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

monsterpile wrote:It's 2 games in but I'm leaning towards going full Thibs and LST...keep Butler and let's see what happens. The best deal we have seen reported basically means paying near max money (when you consider total salaries of the players coming back) for what might be a complimentary player not a true max guy. If someone comes with a real offer that is something close to real value for Butler then yeah let's talk but bring something legit or don't call.

Part of that is I just don't see a team with super awkwardness at this point. Jimmy is just Jimmy having fun and also kicking butt and he isn't in top form yet. This team did some nice stuff in the first 2games and it seems like there is a chance it actually has some depth. Now I gotta get out of the habit of checking twitter for details om Butler 17,598,417 times a day.

I'll never forgive Lip for lumping me in with Thibs...I'm leaving the board if this outrage continues :) !

Lol. I know that was a low blow. But your deserved it. :) I'll confess that there a part of me that wants to see Jimmy Butler remain with the team this season. But the problem is that he doesn't want to be here and will eventually leave. The more we watch the team with Butler the more we'll get sucked into the joy of it all. But all along, we have to know that we will probably wake up one day and find that the rug has been pulled out from under us and the joy obliterated with the news Jimmy has been traded. Or pehaps he doesn't leave until next summer, at which point we have nothing of value in return for him. Either way, it's bad. So as you and Monster morph into fan versions of Thibs, I will soldier on alone as the singular voice of reason. :) Meanwhile, I might catch a glimpse of LST in the crowd incessantly screaming obscenities and constantly barking directions at Wolves players. Then I'll know the metamorphosis is complete. :)

It's amazing that we can look at this situation so differently. I see Butler leaving as a great thing for the intermediate and long term health of the franchise. I will have a very good day when he gets moved or moves on. His incredulousness about why the fans would boo him last night shows what a dumbass he truly is.

Cool - I think my view is similar to yours. Jimmy makes us better this season if he stays, but he has no realistic long-term trajectory with this team. Therefore, he has to be moved in my judgment. And anyone, including Thibodeau, who thinks we're going to get a comparably established allstar back in return is kidding himself. Richardson, a 2019 lottery protected 1st and either Waiters or Olynyk was and is Butler's market value. The Wolves should have made that trade.

When the market value is bad you don't force a trade just to make a trade.

You do when the player you're trying to trade wants out and will otherwise inevitably leave for nothing next summer as a free agent. Yes, you don't make a trade just to make a trade. You make a trade even if it means pennies on the dollar if you know it's likely you'll get absolutely nothing if you don't. That's the reality we're in and I don't like it any more than you. Thibodeau and a few fans seem to be the only ones who have yet to accept that reality and deal with it.

On the other hand there is a lot more money in these trades than pennies and dollars. That's a pretty significant issue of some of these deals.

I get that part, Monster. But getting big salary back for Butler is likely an inevitable part of getting a young high upside talent on a reasonable contract. That's what the market is telling us. Either that or we get crap talent in return but minimal long-term financial burden. We all want the same thing in exchange for Butler - exciting young talents on reasonable contracts but no marginal players on bad long-term deals. But as Mick Jagger told us years ago, "you can't always get what you want." :). We get for Butler what the market says we get. I'll take on a financial burden and figure out ways to deal with it if that's what it takes to get a promising young talent like Josh Richardson on a reasonable deal. I'd like to believe Butler would command a better deal than the one Miami purportedly agreed to, but as far as we know, that was the best offer and that was the measure to date of Butler's market value.

But........If you have to take back a bad salary that basically negates much of the value of the positive of "reasonable contract" of Josh Richardson. If Richardson is a Covington type guy that's a nice player to have but if we have to have 2 roster spots tied up with 22 million bucks for that type of player we lose. People complain about Wiggins being overpaid and how we overpaid Dieng. Doing that deal has potential to be that type of thing all over again. Cam is right the Richardson hype train is getting a little out of hand and I do actually like Richardson and think he is on a good trajectory. It's not certain how good he will be. I get the various willingness to gamble on getting a good player there but...quite frankly for basically having to pay a guy 20+ million let's just fire everyone now cut some guys on the roster loose and try and find our next Josh Richardson or Covington while playing Okogie etc. That plan isn't realistic for various reasons but yeah.

Plus if you say...but the draft pick is worth doing the deal you can probably get a pick or something that valueable with the flexibility of not having 20+ million in payroll.

Doing that suggested/reported deal isn't a no-brainer deal to help the franchise just to get something and just get rid of Butler. Would I do it? Idk for one thing I'd want to watch some full games of Richardson before making that decision.

monsterpile wrote:But........If you have to take back a bad salary that basically negates much of the value of the positive of "reasonable contract" of Josh Richardson. If Richardson is a Covington type guy that's a nice player to have but if we have to have 2 roster spots tied up with 22 million bucks for that type of player we lose. People complain about Wiggins being overpaid and how we overpaid Dieng. Doing that deal has potential to be that type of thing all over again. Cam is right the Richardson hype train is getting a little out of hand and I do actually like Richardson and think he is on a good trajectory. It's not certain how good he will be. I get the various willingness to gamble on getting a good player there but...quite frankly for basically having to pay a guy 20+ million let's just fire everyone now cut some guys on the roster loose and try and find our next Josh Richardson or Covington while playing Okogie etc. That plan isn't realistic for various reasons but yeah.

Plus if you say...but the draft pick is worth doing the deal you can probably get a pick or something that valueable with the flexibility of not having 20+ million in payroll.

Doing that suggested/reported deal isn't a no-brainer deal to help the franchise just to get something and just get rid of Butler. Would I do it? Idk for one thing I'd want to watch some full games of Richardson before making that decision.

Yep, you put my thoughts in a very nice post.

I also don't think it is bad to just let Jimmy walk at the end of the year.

In theory if we let Jimmy walk, Taj walk, decline the player opt on Patton (Not sure I would do it but it is an option), Maybe not resign Tyus. Teague could walk. Tolliver, Rose, Deng, Nummley all are free agents. That is approx. 67 million cleared up in cap space.

With that cap space we could potentially sign good players or we could take on 1 year bad contracts and get more picks back. We could keep cap space and be one of the few teams in the NBA that have cap space in the 2020 season.

We can legit rebuild around the core of Wiggins, KAT, Okogie and KBD, and other 1st round picks and we would have cap space to do what we want.

If we do the Heat trade. Here is our team. KAT, Wiggins, Gorgui, Richardson, Waiters, Okogie and KBD, with a couple of rookies. We would be near the lux tax line also. That is our team. So we better be sure Richardson will be legit all star level player because that is our team for 3 years and no way to really fix it if it does not go right.

Josh Richardson's start to the 2018-19 campaign:

@ ORL: 8-21 FG, 2-10 3P, +/- of -5 in 38 minutes

@ WSH: 8-21, 5-11 3P, +/- of 0 in 38 minutes

vs CHA: 3-11 FG, 1-6 3P, +/- of -4 in 27 minutes

People are trying to make him out to be something he's not. Much more of a complimentary player than a rising star.